Full Episode Transcript

Season 2 | Episode 6: My Desire is to Stay Here (with Angela Thomas)

Transcribed by: Eryn Strong, Hannah Rosentreter, Gina Marioni, Sonia Montejano, Kisa Nishimoto, Leina Megurikami and Jamie Fischer

Running Time: 1:45:03

Angela Thomas: And something magical happens when you turn forty. 

Jodi-Ann Burey:  Yes, please tell me. I just got a couple years until I get there. So give me the sneak peek. *chuckles*

Angela Thomas: Oh my god, something magical happens at forty. You learn … that, what took me so long? What the hell was I thinking? You—the word “no” just becomes your favorite word. [Jodi-Ann: laughs] And you're so unapologetic about it and then when you hit fifty, “hell no,” becomes your … *laughs*

Jodi-Ann Burey:  Thirty is like, “I think so, maybe.” And then forty like, “no.” And then fifty, “hell no.” *both laugh*

[Theme music begins]

Jodi-Ann Burey (as host): Welcome to Black Cancer, a podcast about the nuances of our lives as people of color told through our cancer journeys. I'm your host Jodi-Ann Burey. And talk about nuances—our guest on today's episode is Angela Thomas: a nurse, a mother and a woman of faith who laced up her gloves and kicked cancer in the ass. What I love about being a person of color is our rich tradition of storytelling. It's alive in our communities, and most importantly, it keeps our communities alive. Angela’s storytelling grounds us in the value of time. We interrogate the notion of leaving everything up to God, and how that works alongside her faith. We talked about her path to diagnosis, the actual logistics of preparing for the worst, learning to say no, our hair, our dreams, and so much more. So, so much more. You are in for a treat until the very end. 

Before we get started, just a heads up: this was recorded in December 2020. A time when we were both really impacted by Dr. Susan Moore’s experiences battling COVID-19. We also start with a conversation about one of Angela's patients. Here's my conversation with Angela.

Angela Thomas: I had a situation at work this week—two actually—and it reminded me of how so very important it is to feel empowered to advocate for yourself in the healthcare arena. It fueled me to make sure that I do what I can to empower people to do that. Because if they don't know where to begin or where to start, right, they don't know how to do it and they get lost. And I have a client right now who, because the healthcare system is stringing him along, is going to miss valuable time with family, in my personal opinion. Because the healthcare system is not being honest, that there's nothing else they can do for him and his cancer journey. And in this pandemic, he's in a hospital where there's no visitation, whereas he could be at home on palliative or hospice care, where he could be surrounded by people that love him. And the way that they dangle that carrot is as though it's something else they can offer him so they won't let go. It breaks my heart, it really does break my heart.

Jodi-Ann Burey:  Is his situation terminal?

Angela Thomas: Yes.

Jodi-Ann Burey:    And he's at the hospital by himself. 

Angela Thomas:  Yes. And I made arrangements for his wife to come and see him. But you know, we have to limit it to two-hour visits. And again, I can't 100% necessarily blame it all on the institution. Because what I have learned is that sometimes you can tell people, “There's nothing else I can do for you.” But because they say to you, “I'm going to send you here so maybe you can get a little stronger,” people kind of hear and interpret that to what they want. Right?

When I read through the notes, in the notes it says all the different places where the cancer has metastasized to, but the patient is so ill that they, the body, he just can't tolerate any additional treatment. So offered them the opportunity to go. But even like I tried to explain to his wife, I said, “Ma'am, you know, even if he was able to participate in a rigorous rehabilitation program, it's nothing else they can give him. So why not just take him home? Where there's no limitation on visits, and you can be with family and I can put things in place to where he has care, 24-hour a day care,” you know.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Do you think she's accepted…?

Angela Thomas: No, she has not. Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Because then it's a sense of like, well, if he comes home, that means I'm giving up.

Angela Thomas: It’s real. Correct. And I really—basically, because I know time is precious—I really just had to say to her, I said, “I'm not being rude, but the bottom line is he's dying.” He has said countless times I just want to go home. He said to me, he has said it to our palliative care team, “I want to go home.” But when she comes in, she'll say, but “No, no, no.” And so he'll change his mind. So I think for her, he's trying to be strong. And he doesn't want it to appear as though he's giving up in her eyes. Because he's, you know, when she's not around, he wants to go home, he keeps saying “I want to go home, I want to go home. I just want to be with my family. I just want to be with my family.” So it's a really sad situation.

Jodi-Ann Burey:  How do you go home with that? ‘Cause I'm looking at you now and like, I can see the emotional impact on you. And this is just one patient that you have. Like, how do you...how do you hold that?

Angela Thomas: Oh, wow. Um, [long pause] music is very important to me. My spiritual connection is important to me, those two things...are my lifeline. It really is. Yeah. And she initially was not very happy with me when I said what I said to her, and I told her, I said, “Ma'am, first of all, I'm a survivor. And I know that their stages, you know, you have denial. But right now, I just feel you don't have the luxury of being stuck in denial. And I don't want you to be sitting in a place regretting anything or saying, ‘Why didn’t I?’ He's my patient, and I have to advocate for him. And yes, he's your husband, you know him a lot better than I do. But when you're not here, this is what he's saying.” She goes, “I just don't believe that.” And so, you know, she goes, “I'll talk to him when I get there.” And of course, she comes in like a windmill in a tornado going, “Don't you remember, we talked about this, and the doctor said that if you could just do the therapy.” “But you're not there when the therapists go to try to move him and he screams.” 

Jodi-Ann Burey:  She doesn’t see that.

Angela Thomas: And I even asked my colleague I said, “Is it that she doesn't see it? Or she doesn't want to?” Because what I did was, he's so weak, he can't even, he can't even dial his phone. Right? So what I said to her is bring in Alexa. And that way, when he would like to talk to you or whatever, he could just say “Alexa dial”, you know. And so there are oftentimes, she's on the phone when the staff is in the room, a lot of the time the staff and nursing staff or physical therapy staff doesn't even realize she's on the phone. And so she has to hear it, because one day I went in and he was talking to me and I said, “You didn't want to get out of bed today.” And he goes, “No.” And then she chimed in through Alexa, you know, and he just kind of looked at me and just shook his head and a tear ran down his face. Like “Hey, that's your wife, dude.” *laughs*

Jodi-Ann Burey: Like I can help you with a lot of things, but I can’t help you with that one. *chuckles*

Angela Thomas: That’s on you. Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Did you read about the Dr. Susan Moore case?

Angela Thomas: I did. I just did. I jumped on and did a thing on the way home because, what happened was, I've been hearing about it but I hadn't actually seen it, and on my way home from work Christmas Eve I viewed it. And it touched me in a way that I just felt compelled to say something. So I did IG Live about it. And several things bothered me about that. The humanity of it all, number one. Just just basic sheer humanity of it all. Number two, it took me back to when I was battling COVID. And that raspiness in her voice and that inability to really talk and breathe. I remember that. It took me back to that place and how that fear was of I'm going to stop breathing at any minute, because it was so hard just to catch your breath. Right? And how painful that was. So I know what her pain was. Right? ‘Cause it was very, very painful. And how her pain level had to exceed, in my mind, had to exceed the pain that I was experiencin’. Because it sounds like, at that moment—and being in healthcare a long time, there are certain things you just know, from experience—you could just look and hear how just listening to her is like, she needed to be intubated, just listening to her. Right. And then when she talked about what her scans look like, I'm thinking to myself—and it's gonna sound maybe weird to other people,—but it's just the reality of it: where in the hell was the professional courtesy? Like—

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yes. yeah.

Angela Thomas: There's a professional courtesy that goes in. Like when she walked in, it was-When she said that he said to her, “I know you're a physician.” It was mockingly like, I don't give a damn that you have, so what. Whereas in any other time, you know, you walk in and you say, “I'm a physician, I'm a nurse practitioner, I'm a nurse.” It's like the red carpet is rolled out. The seas part. You get carte blanche. I have gone into healthcare establishments, and I will not say what my profession is, because I don't want to try to take advantage of that, if I don't have to. Right?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Thomas: But invariably, it's known because the, you know, through conversation, they'll say, “Uhh...how do you know so much,” you know. And then they're like, “Why didn’t you say that, girl come on back here? Let me take care of ya,” you know what I'm saying? The red carpet is rolled out, the seas part, you know, whatever. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah. Yeah.

Angela Thomas: Okay. And so I'm saying to myself, if that happens for me as a nurse, damn, she should have carte blanche. Like, what the hell? And then it's so obvious at that point to me that it was all about the skin that she was wrapped in.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yep.

Angela Thomas: Right? 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yep. Like her experience didn't matter, how she felt didn't matter. She has the language to talk to these people in their own language. And they don't want to see it. They don't want to see it. Because they're lookin’ at her Blackness, they're looking at the assumptions of why she's there through that lens, and they can't see a patient who needs serious help. They can't see it.

Angela Thomas: Yeah, and the thing, I say, well damn, you know, we're screwed. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh, yeah. 

Angela Thomas: ‘Cause here's the thing: even if she wasn't a doctor, she's a human being first and foremost. So regardless of what her background is, she was a human being who went for medical care. And the first oath that we take is to cause no harm. That's the first one that we take. One of the very first things that I was taught was listen to your patient. Right? They failed all of those things miserably. And I don't have all the ins and outs and all the details. But I have no reason to believe that this highly-educated woman would find a reason to get on. She basically was screaming for someone to help me. Right. So I find no reason as she would get on, make a broadcast like that for no reason, other than the fact that she needed help. And she knew that she needed to help. For him to say, “Oh, yeah, I know you’re a doctor.” It made me think of a conversation I just had the night before with my neighbor who had came over to share with me, ... I did a, I did an episode called, [Jodi-Ann: This is for your podcast?] Yes, How to Advocate...How to Interview for a Physician and she had listened to it and she came over to tell me how grateful she was for the episode and that--how empowered she felt, because she had recently gone to a physician. And one of the things the physician asked on the intake was, you know, they asked about alcohol, drinking...things like that, right? So she said, she answered yes, that she did drink, but she was a social drinker. Like for her birthday, anniversary, things like that.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah. A lot of people, a lot of people are.

Angela Thomas: She said the doctor’s response to her was, “Yeah, right.” [Jodi-Ann: Shut your mouth.] Yeah. She said, “Huh?” She said, she told us she said, “Yeah, what right?”...“I'll see, I'll see when I get your blood work.” 

And I said, “Well, what does she mean she'll see when she gets your blood work, because unless she's drawnin’ blood alcohol level, [Jodi-Ann: You can't see nothing.*laughs*] I said, “What is she talking about?” I told her, I said, “Girl, why didn’t you get your purse? And uh... skedaddle?” [Jodi-Ann: Deuces. Exactly! *laughs*] And she said, “When the lab work came back…” She told, she said, “Oh yeah, you were right.” 

I said, “Well first of all, she breached your privacy, because unless you give consent for drug or alcohol screening, she didn’t have a right to do that. And what made her think that you…this is a Master’s...She has a Master’s degree in Education. She’s…And I’m not saying that because you’re educated that you don't have problems with substance abuse or whatever. But this lady just automatically assume, Oh nah...you, you know. So it’s the again, that's that assumption, that if you're wrapping it in a certain tone, or hue, you're more prone to...but if you look at it from a statistical standpoint, I don't think we’re the ones...That's the one thing that would-that's the only favor they gave us about this, um, with the prescription drug, the lot, and the [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm, mmhmm.] morphine and kinds of stuff. Eh... *sigh*

Jodi-Ann Burey: You’re like, “Mmm that’s uh, uh…” [Angela: That’s not us.] That’s not us *both laughs* It's so funny. So when I was in, when I was in grad school, I worked at the Wellness Center. And there was this huge push to...change a lot of like, kind of how campus was running because of the level of alcohol abuse with partying, and the fraternities and sororities and all that kind of stuff. And so as I'm looking at the data, and I'm chatting with folks, it's like, when it comes to alcohol abuse, and even alcohol related deaths on campus, it's disproportionately the white students. Because when it comes to partying, and all that kind of stuff on campus, it's not us. We're not abusing alcohol like that. So it's just interesting, this conception of like, you see a Black person, see a person of color, you're assuming all this drug use, drug abuse. And that's not really what's happening in our communities. 

But to your point around pointing out the Master's degree, and I get that balance of she has a Master's, okay, it doesn't mean that just because you're highly educated, you don't abuse alcohol, or drugs. But there's this sense—particularly, I think, as people of color—that if we get the credentials, if we dress the way you want us to dress, if we talk the way you want us to talk, then you could see us as people. We have to go above and beyond, [Angela: Above and beyond.] beyond duty. I gotta get a PhD for you to just do a health screening *laughs* and treat me like a person? [Angela: Correct.] And I think what-what hits home about the Dr. Moore case is that, when we control for all of these like socio-economic status, level of education, all of that you still just see a Black person who can't be treated like a human. That in some sense, those things don't matter. And when I think about Dr. Morre’s video...How many videos are there like that, that don't make it to the national stage? Right? Like she's not special in some ways around her experiences in the healthcare system. This is just the story that we know.

Angela Thomas: And here's what's interesting about that. And if I'm wrong, I stand corrected. Now. It's news because it's social media. [Jodi-Ann: Oh, yeah.] But I have not seen CNN, [Jodi-Ann: Mmm…] or any-Good Morning America or anybody else pick up that story. Now if I'm wrong, correct me. But I haven't seen it.

Jodi-Ann Burey: I-I wasn’t seeing it, I was only seeing it on social media so, a while ago, I was watching it and then I just looked it up just now. New York Times wrote about it. But that was just two days ago… [Angela: Wow.] *laughs* Yeah. And I'm like, December 23rd? How long have we been talking about this? You know? 

Angela Thomas: Right. ‘Cause I've been seeing it for a couple of weeks and I saw it and I'm like, “Eh…” Because like, I've been really, really busy. And I kind of scrolled through a few things on social media. But yeah. And finally, I heard somebody say something, and I said, “I'm gonna go ahead and watch this video.” And then after I watched it, I'm like, Oh...my...God, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? And here's the thing, it's not to say that she wouldn't have succumbed to COVID. But whatever time she had, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] it was not with dignity and grace. And it was not without pain...And her pain could have been controlled, and she could have been given dignity and grace. That’s the issue.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Exactly. It’s the quality of life [Angela: Life.] whatever she had, not [Anglea: Yes.] Could this have made a difference whether she was dying? You would not treat your mom that way. Right?

Angela Thomas: And then to discharge her at 10 o’clock as a courtesy-as a courtesy. [Jodi-Ann: 10 o'clock? Are you kidding? You don’t discharge somebody at 10 o'clock.] In that condition. And then the way she described her X-ray, I'm like, why would you even discharge somebody with an X-ray like that? Like, Are you crazy? But anyway.

Jodi-Ann Burey: *sigh* Like, when I think about your patient, when I think about Dr. Moore, there’s this sense of like, person, and then their situation, their condition, their health. And then, when I get back to and starting with the person part, right? [Angela: Mmhmm.] And how important it is for us to know ourselves, know our bodies. Because to me, you know, I'm curious about you, what you think. But for me, that is the foundation of self-advocacy is the self part: knowing yourself. [Angela: Correct.] And I think a big part of people's narratives, when it comes to their cancer journeys, or how they navigate some health crisis is this call-to-action to know your body. But I don't think people really understand what that means, or the journey that that takes, for that to be true. Like, I can't just sit here and be like, I'm going to know my body. Right? So tell me about your relationship to your body. How do you think you've come to know your body?

Angela Thomas: I have always been a science geek, but got really serious, I would say, junior/senior year of high school and got into working out. Typical teenager...I didn't eat bad, but I didn't always eat great. But I always looked at the genetics of things because there was cardiac disease, kidney disease, things of that nature in my family. So I wanted to know how that worked. And what can I do to change my pathway. Obesity was an issue so I didn't want to deal with that. I pretty much knew my body. I watched things like sodium and, you know, didn't do a lot of processed foods and things of that nature. So I pretty much was in tune with my body, pretty much was healthy. 

My first real medical interaction or going into a hospital, I was fourteen. I was at a track meet and running track. I had umbilical hernia, but I never had really issues with it. But while I was running track, it strangulated and I had to have emergency surgery and that was my first time ever going into a hospital, I had the little minor surgery done. And I didn't have any other surgery until I was probably twenty...26 or 27. I had a miscarriage and I had to have D&C. And so, other than that I was pretty healthy. You know, when

Jodi-Ann Burey: You know, when you look back on your medical history, and how you know your body. Similarly, I wasn't athletic, but I like, paid attention to what was happening in my body. And then you have these like, key moments where you're like, [Angela: Mmhmm.] Huh, pay attention to that? Alright. Pay attention to that? *chuckles* [Angela: Yep.] All right, cool. And I think sometimes, like, when you're on a path to diagnosis, right, you have this baseline sense of what your body does, you have a baseline sense of like, here are some of the anomalies that I experienced throughout my life. And I think sometimes you can start getting on this path towards diagnosis but you don't know you're on it yet. Right? [Angela: Right.] Cuz these right little moments happen over time. And maybe there are some things hard to miss. So I think the way I think about it, it's like a series of unfortunate events. *chuckles* Then you start stringing together like, Okay, this is trying to tell me something, my body is trying to tell me something. Because these series of unfortunate events are kind of happening, maybe too close together. Or they're...they're-they’re similar. And so, I know you have a couple of stories, as you got to your path for your cancer diagnosis. So can we start with kind of, how you got to this trip to Disney and kind of walk me through what happened?

Angela Thomas: Well, I had decided to get serious about my workout regimen again, probably...couple of months, had been really hitting the gym relatively hard. And I had my days of cardio and, you know, weights and all this kind of stuff. And a friend of mine had recommended this protein sort of like supplements that you take 30 minutes before you go to the gym, and it helps you. And I'm like, Okay, cool. So I researched it, I don't just put anything in my body without researching it. So I'm like, Okay, so I checked it out and stuff, okay. And so I’ve been taken it for about two weeks, in one day, I was in a gym and, and I had this chest pain. And, but it was more, you know, I thought I pulled a muscle, I didn't really think much of it. I thought I pulled a muscle. And because I, like I said, I was really, you know, butterflies and pullin’ up and all this kind of stuff. So [Jodi-Ann: Like you know what you’re doing, you’re an athlete. So this, you're not, you know, just doing some squats in the corner.] Yeah. [Jodi-Ann: You’re hittin’ it! *laughs*] No, no, no, I’m hittin’ it. 

So you know, and the pain wasn't like a-you know, I didn’t consider it like a cardiac type thing. You-I thought it's like, Okay, I pulled a muscle. I would have it off and on for a couple of weeks. And-but like no big deal, you know, you do the typical thing, you pop a couple of Advil, heat pack, and you keep it pushing, right? So I backed off on some of the weights, I went down on some of the weights, and then I cut back on some of my reps. And I was fine. And so my kids had always wanted to see Disney for the holidays at Christmas time, right? Because they watched some show. We're here in Houston, it's ABC 13. But they would air this thing around the holidays when Disney has all the lights and stuff, right? And I told em, I said, “Well, when you get older, I'll take you.” If I spend that kind of money, you got to remember it [Jodi-Ann: Exactly.] So we decided that we would take the kids to Disney, and that had to be December 2010. 

So we took them, my oldest had to be about 15. And my youngest, he was 10. And so we're having a good time, everything's fine. It was just a beautiful night, it was really nice. And we headed back and all of a sudden, I had this chest pain and it, it was so intense that I became short of breath. It was like the best way to describe it, it's like somebody just kind of sucker-punched me in the middle of my back and just take your breath away, you know? Stopped me and my tracks.

And my son said, “Mom what’s wrong?” And I'm like, “Oh, nothing.” Cuz you know, I don't want to worry ‘em. I'm like uh... He's like, he's like, “Yeah, something's wrong. I go “Nothing.” What's wrong?” And so, my, my husband at the time, he said, “You having chest pain again?” And I'm like, “Yeah, but it's, it’ll pass.” Of course, he immediately starts fussing and goes, “It’s them darn things you been drinkin’, and I told you to quit drinking those protein-that stuff.” And I'm like, “I haven't drank that stuff in...whatever.” And so of course, my my, my sons being boys and how they are about their mom is like, “We need to go to the emergency room, let’s just go!” which I’m just like, “We don't need to go to the emergency room, it’s passing, I'm feeling better. We'll just go, you know, lie down and I'm fine.” So we did and I'm fine. And I'm good. No more pain, no more issues.

And January rolls around. I'm at work. And I was a middle school nurse, I get a call about a kid having an asthma attack. And because the kid is on the other side of the building, and I'm halfway there, and it happens again, or I just lose my breath. And I'm like...and my assistant. I told her, I said, “I can’t-I can't make it.” She said-she said-she said, “Ms. Angela what’s wrong, what’s wrong?” And I say “I think I'm having a heart attack.” And she looked at me and I told, I said, “But I'm fine. You take this and get to him. I told the assistant principal, I say, “You can go ahead and call 911 for me [Jodi-Ann laughs] and let them know, you think that your nurse is having a cardiac arrest.” Tell them just like that. I said “When the ambulance arrived, in case something happened to me, tell them this is the hospital to take me to, no other hospital.” This is where I'm going right? Because there's a rule that they take you to the nearest hospital and [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] I-I like the nearest hospital.

Jodi-Ann Burey: *laughs* I know where I need to go.

Angela Thomas: Yeah, make a long story short, we get to this hospital and they do the cardiac workup and, you know, give you the morphine for the chest pain and all this kind of stuff. And doctor comes in and he says, “I'ma do a stress test on you.” And I said, “Okay.” So they do the stress test and he came back and he said, “Well,” he said, “your EKG and your stress test is negative. I think you have GERD. [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] I said to him,  “Sir, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you.” I said, “I don't have GERD. I know this is not GERD.” So he hands me a prescription for Protonix. And I told him, I say, “You can keep that prescription.” Right. I said, “I know this is not GERD.” And here's the thing, he never once asked me was that the first time I had the pain? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Or anything. He was just telling me that just because my cardiac enzymes were negative, and the stress test was negative, it was GERD. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah. And what's GERD?

Angela Thomas: GERD is like when you have acid reflux. And so basically, a more fancy word for indigestion, kind of, sort of. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah. *chuckles*] I just knew, in the pit of my stomach, I knew it wasn’t GERD. So I'm thinking maybe I have some sort of blockage. Maybe it's in this small vessel or something [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] and you know, my mother died of a heart attack at the age of 56. And like I said, there's cardiac disease on both sides on my father and my mom's side. And I'm like, I'm not going to be this statistic just because this doctor thinks I have GERD. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.]

So I get home. And I called a friend of mine, who's a physician, and I said to her, I said, “Listen, I need a cardiologist.” [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Someone who you would go to, or if it was your mom or your dad, you know. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] So she gave me a name, I made an appointment. And when I went in to see him, he walked in, and I said to him, I said, you know, “Nice to meet you. However, I'd like to interview you.” [Jodi-Ann: laughs] He said, “Okay.” I said, “‘Cause here's the thing, there's no sense in me wasting your time and vice versa, if we are not on the same page, right? And I'm having these issues. And if you're going to be dismissive, there's no sense in-you were recommended to me. I trust the person. However, I'm just not gonna blindly trust.” You know, because [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] we may not always agree, but we got to be on the same page. And this is what I'm looking for.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And I think that's the shift, right? Like, we're partners in this. [Angela: Right.] One, not just your medical background and your experience, but I'm the patient, like, there's a partnership here. And so, [Angela: Correct.] there is a level of, Okay, how competent, are you as a medical professional? How can we be in communication and work on this together? What I find interesting in listening to your story here is that there's this shift, right? You're at Disney with your family, you're experiencing all this pain, and you still have this focus of, okay, what's going on with my kids? What do they need, I'm fine, don't worry about it.

Then I hear this story at work with this asthmatic kid who needs attention, you can’t get there, your priority was to make sure that this kid got the medical attention that they need. When he's okay, then you call 911 for me. Now, what I'm hearing your story is, Here's what I need. Here's what's going on with me. You know, I'm not gonna deal with X, Y, and Z, because I need to stay focused on what's going to get me the best care, I'm not going to go to this hospital. And here's what I need from you. And I really appreciate that shift. Because I wonder what you think about folks being in a caring profession as you're in as a nurse, being around kids, having kids, having a family and having this orientation of caring for other people? What do you think about that shift of then saying, Okay, this is what I need. Here's how I'm going to focus on myself.

Angela Thomas: I think that most care providers—those who are called to it—oftentimes will neglect themselves. And one of the things that I learned through this process is not to neglect myself. The best way to describe it, Jodi-Ann, is like this, I'm no good to anyone, if I don't take care of me first. I'm not. Many years ago, I was putting together a business proposal and the financial guy that I was meeting with, he said to me, “What are your goals? Short term, long term goals? And what legacy would you like to have come out of starting this business?” I said to him, I said, “One of the things I would like to see come to fruition is this business is an asset to the community. That we're not just taking from the community, but we're giving back and we're pouring into the community, right?” He said, “That's fine. That's great.” He said,  “I understand it.”  He said, “But when you take a cookie jar nice and clean, right, but you have to fill the cookie jar first.” He said, “When you get down, you get that last cookie out, the jar is no longer clean. Got all these crumbs in there, right?” He said, “You gotta clear the cookie jar first.” So, that's basically telling me that I have to fill me first, in order to be able to sprinkle anything to anybody else. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And I've had to learn that. I've had to learn that. And something magical happens when you turn 40.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yes, please tell me. I just got a couple years until I get there. So give me a sneak peek. *giggles*

Angela Thomas: Oh, my God, something magical happens at 40. You learn is, What took me so long? What the hell was I thinking. You-the word “No” just becomes your favorite word. [Jodi-Ann laughs] And you're so unapologetic about it. And then when you hit 50, “Hell no.” becomes your...*laughs*

Jodi-Ann Burey: 30... 30’s like, “I think so. Maybe.” And then 40, like, “No.”

Angela Thomas:And then, 50, “Hell no.” *both laugh*

Jodi-Ann Burey: 60 be like, “Fuck that.” *chuckles* No. 

Angela Thomas: It's true, though. It’s true. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: So you're in, you're in the doctor's office and you’re like, “Listen...”

Angela Thomas: “We're gonna interview.”And he said, and he said, he crossed his legs. I'll never forget that, he crossed his legs and he said, “Shoot.” He said, “What's your question? Shoot.”

Jodi-Ann Burey: That is what I mean.That is what I mean.

Angela Thomas: I said, check. I said, Okay, he's off to a good start. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.]  And it didn't hurt that he was cute. [Jodi-Ann giggles] This is what I liked about him, and I don't mind, I can say his name, right?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah. If you want to share it, go for it.

Angela Thomas: Okay, his name is Dr. Colin Barker. He's a cardiologist. He used to be here in Houston, but he took a chairman of Cardiology role. And so he's no longer here, but his name is Colin Barker, B-A-R-K-E-R. He's a fantastic cardiologist. Bedside manner is fantastic. But he crossed his leg and he said it, he said, and he turned it and he looked at me. He wasn't paying attention to anything but me, right? And he said, “Shoot.” And so I told him, I said, Okay, you know, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I need. And this is what's going on. And I have, you know, my mom died at age 56. So both have cardiac disease. My father has cardiac disease. And I just gave him my history. And then,what I'm looking for. What I expect a partnership from a physician, right? And he said, “Oh, that's not unreasonable.” You know, and we went from there. And then he said, “Okay, this is what I think. And I'd like to start with doing this first is that, you know, are you agreeable to that?” You know, and then he explained why. Not, “Oh, I'm just going to order this.” But why--what was he looking for, what he hoped to? And he didn't, he didn't assume that just because I was in healthcare, that there was no explanation needed to go with it. [Jodi-Ann: Yes.] He gave me the explanation and then we got to work. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, I love the emphasis here around like, not assuming just because you were in the healthcare field that you didn't need a walkthrough, right? [Angela: Right.] It's like, whether I know or don't know, just because I might know, doesn't mean, I don't need the care, attention, support and help. And I think particularly as strong women, we don't get that grace, I think of like, oh, just because she might have it, you know, doesn't mean she doesn't need support. [Angela: Correct.] 

That support also looks like having a good relationship with your doctor. That's why that focus is so important. Are you looking at me? Or are you looking at the computer? Do you understand my idiosyncrasies, the things that I need, how I communicate in order for us to have that good relationship? Because that could end up saving somebody's life, right? [Angela: Correct.] There are instances when I've developed relationships with doctors over the years where I could just text them or call them. Or, you know, if I call the office, the front desk knows kind of who I am and you have that type of relationship where you can get the access that everyone should have. [Angela: Right.] I want you to share the story of like, I guess how you even leveraged that, to be able to just call them when you were running errands that day. And then you ended up with a diagnosis.

Angela Thomas: Well, one of the things that he did is he wanted me to wear a 24-hour halter monitor. And so I, I did that and it was it was negative. And so, he finally decided that I could go back to work. And after being back at work for about a week, I...I wasn't feeling too well. I was sort of just fatigued. And went out that Saturday to run errands. And in the middle of running errands had this chest pain again, while I'm driving. Kind of took my breath away. And one of the things that he had did, was he had given me his cell phone number. And, you know, I don't think that all doctors need to do that. And I think, because we have some people who are or will be abusive and intrusive, you know. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] So what I did was, I didn't even call, I just text and I said, “Hey, I'm having this chest pain again.” And he called and he said, he asked me, he said, “Do you want to call an ambulance?” And I said, “No, I can make it.” And he said, “Okay, I'm gonna call ahead to the hospital.” I was like, I don't know what this is, because I had an echo. I had had my EKG, I had stress tests, and I had worn a 24-hour holter monitor. And he said, “The only thing we have not done is a heart cath. We can't put it off anymore, we're going to have to do a heart cath, because it must be small vessels.” 

So he said, “I'll meet you at the hospital.” So we'll do the heart cath. And he walks in and he had this look on his face. And I'm like, Oh, shit, I need bypass surgery, you know? And I said, “What?” And he said, “You want the good news or the bad news?” And I said, [Jodi-Ann: Don't do that. *both laugh* Just lay it out.] Just, just shoot, you know, I'm a straight shooter. Just shoot, you know? He said, “Well, the good news is, it's not your heart. You don't have...your vessels are fine.” And so I said, “Then what's wrong?” And he said, “When you went to the emergency room the first time did they not do a chest X-ray on you?” And I said, “Yes.”

“You say they didn't say anything about it?” I said, “No.” He said, “You have a mass in the center of your chest.” And I said, “What?” And he said, “You have a mass and we're going to have to have it biopsied.” And I said, “Okay.” But when he said it, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] it's like, this feeling that I had been having in the pit of my stomach all of a sudden made sense. [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] At that moment, I knew, I don't know how I knew, but I knew, right? And I said, “Oh, wow, wow. Okay.”  And he says, “So from the looks of the X-ray, it looks like it's about the size of a small lemon. And it's sitting up against your heart. So that's why all this time thinking is cardiac disease.” But you know, just being in healthcare, a tumor sitting up against your heart is not a normal thing. [Jodi-Ann: No. *chuckles*] So I just knew, I just knew that it wasn't gonna be benign. I did. I knew. My concern was had it, had it started to wrap itself around vessels, you know, or had it started encroaching into the cardiac muscle. You know, how extensive it was going to be. You know, that's where my head was. So, yeah,that was the journey on diagnosis. And so, I had the biopsy on February the 11th. And I had the surgery on--to have the tumor excise--on February 14th. And my friends was like, “Only you would have open heart surgery on Valentine's Day.” ‘Cause they had to do the same, the surgery was the same as a thoracotomy. So yeah. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: You're like, I have an open heart. *chuckles* Like literally and figuratively, I have an open heart. 

Angela Thomas: But I told my friends, I said, yeah, I was like, “Ya’ll know that I never do anything simple. Come on, right?” *both chuckle* 

Jodi-Ann Burey: So what was your diagnosis? 

Angela Thomas: Large B-Cell lymphoma.

Jodi-Ann Burey: It's interesting because like, these are the types of cancers and tumors and stuff that people don't know a lot about.

Angela Thomas: And I had to find a support group. And that was interesting. I shared with a friend of mine recently who successfully battled prostate cancer and he was talking about his support group. I asked him was his support group mixed, you know, what was the makeup? And he said it was about 40 people in the support group, [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] a significant number of African American men and I asked him how important that was to him. And he said it was important in the main person that he is in contact with still is an African American. And I was saying to him that the support group was helpful in that it provided me with resource and information about the disease, right? [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm, mmhmm.] But I didn't feel inclusive in that group, because there was no one in that room that looked like me. Right. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] 

And internally, I was an emotional wreck. I felt like my role was to—my job was to kick cancer in the ass. [Jodi-Ann: Yep!] Right? But not only kick it in the ass, but to also show my children that I was going to be okay. [Jodi-Ann: Right.] But really deep down inside, there were moments when I wasn't so sure. [Jodi-Ann: Right, yeah.] You're going to get what I'm about to say; You've ever been at an event or something, a professional event or something, and you walk in the room, and you don't see anyone that look like you. And when you finally see someone that look like you, y'all can-you can make eye contact and a whole conversation transpires, and you've never met that person, you'd be like, whew. You know [Jodi-Ann: Yes.] it's like...I wanted a support group where I went, and I can feel a part of something. And it's something about sisterhood, it’s something about our relationship with one another that we have that it's like a, it's like…Growing up as a kid my grandmother used to make these quilts. I wish I could find one to this day ‘cause I wouldn't even have to turn my heat on because they were so warm. And it's like our sisterhood when we are together, it's like having a warm quilt, a warm hug, right? And so I wanted a support group to where not only could I get the medical information and resource information, but that emotional support that we give each other because, yes, we're all human and blah blah blah. But we have some experiences that only we share and we understand. And so, I went to one or two meetings, and then after that I'm like, eh I'm out, it’s not for me.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Back in the day when we went to stuff and saw people across rooms, right? When you see the only other Black person there, you have that visual conversation. And you described it well, they're like, *sigh* okay, right, like, there's this release. And what's being released is this guard, this armor, where now I can actually do what I came here to do, because I'm not holding that up. [Angela: Mmhmm.] And so I think when we're trying to navigate support spaces, I don't want to be guarded, I don't want, you know, to be holding my breath, to just at least try to get a little something out of here. I want to be in a space where I could like, *sigh* okay, cool, breathe. You sit back, you can actually get the support and care that you need [Angela: Right.] without being guarded. [Angela: Correct.] It's just hard to, I think, even access my own humanity, right, [Angela: Mmhmm.] if I'm also trying to navigate, I'm also trying to find the space to just be myself. It's too much to manage. And then also dealing with like, wait, did I just have cancer? You know? Ah! So, I love the sense of this quilt holding you. [Angela: Mmhmm.] And I think that, that visual, that sense of being held, and what that means for you also showed up in that dream that you told me about, about your need for speed. *both laugh*

Angela Thomas: You didn't forget that, did you?

Jodi-Ann Burey: No I did not forget that! *laughs* Do you want to share that story?

Angela Thomas: So before I was diagnosed, one night, I had a dream. And it was very, very vivid. And in this dream, I was driving with my youngest son, we took this curve, like I was coming off the freeway going on up a ramp and I lost control of the vehicle. And we went over the ramp. And as the car was falling, I remember just saying to him, “Mama is so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I should have slowed down. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.” And I remember praying to God saying just let him be okay. When this lands, just let him be okay. And I remember sitting straight up in the bed from that dream because it was so real and so vivid to me. You know, after that I was driving more cautiously. And it's not that I'm a bad driver, I just have a heavy foot. I just have a need for speed.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah but it’s just heavy, it’s just a little heavy! [Angela: It’s just ahh!] Everybody's different, you know, mine is a little heavy.

Angela Thomas: You know, I like supercars, power cars, you know, but anyway. I was driving so cautiously, in fact, my kids were like, “Mom, what's wrong with you? What's going on?” I’m like, “I'm driving the speed limit!” Like, “You never drive—” I said, “I do, I do.” But I knew. I knew that that dream—I had a dream because God was getting ready to prepare me for something. I didn't know what it was. I didn't know whether someone close to me was getting ready to go through something, or someone was going to die. My first reaction was I didn’t know whether God was trying to tell me that he was getting ready to take one of my kids. I didn't know what it was. I just knew something different that was going to be a challenge was about to happen in my life. He was preparing me for it. 

And when I got my diagnosis, I remembered the dream. That's what the dream was about. Oh, okay. Right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And, and I remember after I had my surgery, I couldn't sleep in my bed, I slept in a recliner. It just was too hard. And it really wasn't the lying down, it was the getting up that was so painful and so I was like, “Forget this. nuh-uh.” And I remember one night, I got this, I think it was a panic attack. But it was a feeling of doom, and it was a feeling of I'm not gonna beat this, I’m gonna die, you know. And “Good Morning America” was on, and they were talking about--it was after that nuclear explosion that happened over in China, whatever. [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] And they talked about this guy that had been out on a boat, or whatever. And he had been out in the ocean for a couple of days on a piece, a little piece of driftwood. And as a result of when that thing exploded, the little boat that he was on, the little fishing boat, whatever, the sheer force of it caused his little boat to splinter and he had been clinging on to this little piece of board. And they were talking about it on Good Morning, America.

Just as clear as I'm talking to you right now, I heard this voice say, “Do you honestly believe that if I can't keep that person, I don't have you?” And it startled me like, ‘cause I'm like, “Okay, I'm in this house by myself.” And I sit up and that's when I realized “Good Morning America” is on. And I'm hearing the story but I'm like, “Well where was that voice coming from?” you know? And at that moment, all doubt about me surviving, getting through it; from that moment forward, I never had a belief that I would not survive. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Not that it was gonna be easy, but I never thought that I wouldn't get through it. Like I knew I was gonna get through it from that going forward. I knew like, “Okay, I'm good.” I laced my gloves up, like *chuckles* round two. Let's go. Yeah!

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, yeah. How do you feel like your faith and God supported you during this time? And did it ever waver?

Angela Thomas: I can't say that it wavered. It was everything and is everything to me. My journey in my spiritual beliefs in what was initially taught to me have changed over the years. But I do believe that there's a higher power. And I do believe that we are required to love. I don't think that it has to be so regimented. And so I think if you read for yourself, I think the whole basis of it is that He expected us to love one another. Right? It is very important to me.

Jodi-Ann Burey: You know, my family is very religious, I come from a Christian household. I'm not totally there. Though, like, even in my own experience, I don't know—I never got there. 

Angela Thomas: What do you mean? 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Like, I always had a vision like if I was facing some major life crisis that I would just fall on my knees and like God, like, take me through this, I will do all the things, right? All the things that my family does, I was raised to do, dedicate my life to the Lord, put God first. Like, I thought maybe that was what would take me there. And I feel like as I was navigating my own experience, I was open to all the options, right? Like, I-my family prayed, my co-workers, because I was working internationally where, you know, they'll pray before meetings, right? I heard that my co-workers in Malawi and, you know, Mozambique, like they prayed at work for me. And I feel very held by those prayers. Like that was very important to me. But I wasn't the one praying all the time. I think I was still trying to manage what I needed to manage. ‘Cause there was a sense for me that if I left it up to God, right—which, you know, a lot of my family members have this orientation of leaving up to God—that, at least for me, I didn't know if that could coexist with interviewing doctors with, you know, being on the internet every day trying to understand my diagnosis, you know, making all these real world decisions. Again, like this is just me; it was hard for me to do that, and have this sense of like, leaving it to God. 

Angela Thomas: I was reared in a very Christian household as well. I was a PK kid. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: PKs, raise up! [Angela: Yeah.] Not me. But I know a lot. I know a lot of y'all. *both laugh* 

Angela Thomas: So that's what I mean. And I think that there's this unfortunate—and this is just my opinion, okay? I think that there's this ideology of leaving everything up to God. And I don't subscribe to that. I don't think that that decreases one's faith, but I love analogies, but... okay, so I can't go [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] eat 50 damn cheeseburgers every day, [Jodi-Ann: chuckles] French fries, never work out, never do any of those things. And then when I get diabetes, or heart disease, and I want to pray and tell everybody to pray for me, and leave it up to God to heal me. I caused it. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah, yeah.] Am I making sense? 

Jodi-Ann Burey: It doesn't mean you don't deserve saving!

Angela Thomas: That’s not what I’m saying! I’m not saying that.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Exactly! That's not what you're saying. 

Angela Thomas: Because we make mistakes, and we all fall short, right? But I gotta bear some of the responsibility, and I gotta do some of the work. So since I dug myself into that situation, I gotta beat myself, I got a back up off that stuff. I gotta start exercising, I have to do my due diligence, meaning that I got to find someone that can help me manage it, I have to align myself with the right people. And then because I've made a step, He said, “If you make one, He'll make two.” Okay? So that's what I mean. I mean, I think that He gives us the skills and the ability, and He has put people in the world to help us navigate and to get to the things that we need. And I don't think that you have to forgo faith and science, [Jodi-Ann: Mmm] I think they can coexist. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] I think they can coexist.

Jodi-Ann Burey: No, and I hear that, I totally hear that. And I hear that in your story too, of having these experiences with God, knowing that he was holding you. But there was still things that you were doing, not just managing your own care, but you shared that you were making plans in case you did die, right?

Angela Thomas: In everything, usually, there's a goal, there's an end goal, right? So you go to college, your end goal was to be able to get a job in whatever field so you can create a life, right? With Christians, their end goal is to be able to see Him face to face, right? What’s their favorite song they sing, and then when you go to any funeral…”I want two wings to veil my face” and right? [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm, yep.] But I find it amazing that when Jesus comes and ring the doorbell, [Jodi-Ann laughs] all of a sudden that same man that they've been crying that they can't wait to see? When he rings the doorbell all of a sudden it’s like, “Hold up, Jesus. I'm not home yet.”

Jodi-Ann Burey:  “Hold on! Not yet, you too early! I said dinner was at six!” *laughs*  

Angela Thomas: *laughs* Dinner’s at seven. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah!] So I just find that a very interesting—especially in Christians who talk about how they, “Can't wait to see Him. And I'm going to put on my robe.” But then when He tries to give you the robe you be like, “Pause! Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait!” [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.]

My thing was, I believe, and I trust. But I also was like, Lord, not my will, but your will be done, right? I want to stay here, the desire of my heart is to stay here, see my children and Lord, perhaps a couple of grandchildren. Right? My father's mother taught me a valuable lesson when I was about eleven. I called her-I had a field trip. I called her and I needed ten dollars for the field trip. And periodically, my grandmother would send me money and every time she would send me money, she always would either send me two fives or a ten dollar bill. Every time, right? Okay. So I needed ten dollars for this field trip. And so I called her, and I said, “Grandma Rosie, I'm going on a field trip, and I need a couple of dollars. Will you send them to me because mom is running a little short. And I need them for this field trip.” She said, “Okay, baby, when do you need it by?” And I told. And during that time, the postal service—if something hit the mail on Monday, you normally got it by Wednesday. So I went to the mailbox, all excited. And I get there and tear the letter open. And there's two dollars in two singles. And the tears begin to flow. I'm like, I'm not gonna make my field trip. Because I needed ten dollars. I run in the house and I call her. And I say, “Grandma Rosie, I got the money, but it's not enough.” She said, “Well, baby, I sent you what you asked me for. You told me you need a couple of dollars; a couple is two.” [Jodi-Ann: I’m dead.] And then I said, “But the field trip was ten.” She said, “Why didn't you ask me for ten?” [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] Mean what you say, say what you mean. Ask for what it exactly is.

So when I had my kids, I used to pray and I said, Lord, let me live to see my children of a good age. And then I had to change that and say—because by the time I got diagnosed, my kid was 15 and 10. Well to some, that's a good age! Define good age. Define it. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Right? So then, I had to change to say, Lord, I would like to live to be... and I'd name the specific age, right? At least with a reasonable portion of health and strength enclosed in my right mind. Right? You got to be specific and asked for those things. My prayer was that if I was not going to make it, then I went to take care of my business. I met-I called my attorney to make sure that the will was in order. I still wanted their things set up—so I wanted it set up in trust so that if they did not go to school, they couldn't touch it till they were 30. [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] Uh huh. I went to the funeral home, I ordered my own coffin, which is paid for, headstone. All this stuff is down, only thing they need to do is put a date on there. And since that time, I've even changed my mind, decided that I want to be cremated. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.]

All this stuff was done. All they would have to do is just—at that time, they would have just had to take clothes—And really I had that picked out too. So. [Jodi-Ann: Wow. Picked out your outfit.] Girl. I can't be going out of here any kind of way now. Listen. Listen, listen, listen. *chuckles* Uh-uh. Uh-uhhh. Gotta be cute in all things! Listen.

Jodi-Ann Burey: *chuckles* Okay, so this-this connects in two ways, right, with other things that you've told me. This preparation, like In case I die...Here's my coffin. Here's my outfit. Here's this. And that showed up in the letter that you wrote to your son. [Angela: Yeah.] And so I want to talk if you have a couple of-If you have a few more minutes, I would love to talk about that. And I also want to talk about, like, [Angela: chuckles] making sure you look cute because we have to talk about [Angela: My girl.] your stylist, your hairdresser. Yes. So that that's-those are two things [Angela: Okay.] I want to make sure we get on the record. Yeah, so like as you think about your faith, like this confidence that God will hold you.You're also preparing your family for the possibility of your death, right? And I think a lot of times, folks think that when you're on your diagnosis and treatment journey, that that's the only thing that you're doing—It's not, right? Your son's going to college, you still have to manage your kid, like, manage your care, [Angela: Yeah.] and also help him you know, go to school. So, tell me about the Morehouse tradition and how you were navigating your own health space, your own mental state, and your journey and supporting him in what he was doing.

Angela Thomas: When we took him, I had a backpack with chemo infusing. I was bald, I had no eyelashes, no eyebrows. And so, one of their traditions is that they ask the parents to write a letter, and then they put it in this box and they seal it. Then at the end of the four years, they give it to the-to the kid. One of the things I had said to my son was that my illness in no way was an excuse for him not to be who God called him to be, and to achieve those things that he had dreamed for himself. One of the things that I love about my son (other than the fact that he's mine) is that this kid--well, he's not a kid anymore, but he's my kid. Anything that he's ever dreamed, he's made it happen. He inspires me to dream bigger for myself and to not quit because he just--even before what was that book, The Secret? We're talking about putting things into the atmosphere and all that kind of stuff. [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] When he was doing that before The Secret was all the rave, he just did. He just put it out there, and he just did. And I remember when the first letter that came, college letter that came, was from Howard, and I'm all excited right, like “Hey you got into Howard!”  And he's like, “Oh..yeah, uh.”  [Jodi-Ann: “Yeah, whatever. It's just a Tuesday.”] *both laugh*

He said, “Um, has anything arrived for Morehouse?” I'm like, okay. *laughs* ‘Cause that's what his vision was, right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah. He knew what he wanted.] So anyway, I wrote this letter to him, and I said to him that I believed that I was going to make it but if I didn't, there was things that I wanted him to know. And they included not only the visions and the things that I saw for him, and that what God had for him. But also, I wanted him to realize there was going to be some challenges, and that he was going to fall. And it was okay to fall, he just couldn't stay down. [Jodi-Ann: I love that.] And then eventually, I was going to have grandchildren. And I wanted them to know about me--to tell them the stories about me. Like, if you saw a really cool car, he could say, “Your grandmother woulda loved that car,” because that's something he and I love. We love cars, and especially the faster they are the better. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Great music or great food, or just stories in general, like, “Child, lemme tell you about your grandmother. [Jodi-Ann: laughs] She'd get her hair fixed, and she'd sleep like…” *demonstrates on camera while laughing* You know, those type of things. Or, “Your grandmother, if pushed could curse like a sailor, and then pull out a fifty-dollar word.” [Jodi-Ann: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. *laughs*] Or, “Your grandmother could go to the gun range and shoot with the best of them. Your grandmother would….You know? That’s just like, just how cool?

So the letter was basically like that. And that, in his moments when he thought that he was missing me, that I still was with him. That I had given him everything he needed. Right? All he had to do was go run his race. And to remember it was his race, nobody else's race. Don't be busy worrying about what somebody else is doing, just to run his race. And then I was already proud of him. He need not ever worry about, I wonder if my mom was proud. Pretty damn proud of you, kid. So that was it and I sealed it up.

Jodi-Ann Burey: So what happened when he like--you survived and then he gets the letter? 

Angela Thomas: We just cried because look, look how God... Look how awesome that is. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah. I love—I think a lot of times we-I think about my parents passing one day—which we all do. Which, I think it's hard to even reconcile that. I think once you go through a cancer journey, you have a different acceptance of death. Like it's a little bit more casual, I think. At least for me, I got confronted with Oh, I'm gonna die maybe sooner than I thought, but it will happen. And so I think about, you know, the people around me—what will happen with when they die? Not if they die, when they die. And I think sometimes, like, as I make decisions about how often I talk to my parents, how often I get to see them—because I don't live around them and COVID—and all of this like, what if my parents died this year? God forbid. What-are they proud of me? What did they think about me? Like all of these questions I would have about them. And I just think it's really powerful that you laid that out. Like, he has that now, forever. it's just a really powerful...a powerful, kind of like, *breathes deeply* thing to have, thing to know. I mean, was it even difficult to write?

Angela Thomas: It was difficult to write in a sense of-the thought of not being able to possibly not be here to witness all that I believe, [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] God will use him to be and do, right? But then again, I've been exposed to so much in healthcare that their father and I have raised them with the understanding of: look, your father and I will not be here always, right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And whenever we leave this world, we need to leave you where you are able to stand. [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] You go through the normal grieving process, but we never wanted to leave this world with—especially boys, Black boys—We're not going to leave this world with boys. We're gonna leave this world with two strong men. And you'll go through the normal grieving process of you lost a parent? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] But not not emotional cripples. And I learned that lesson, I think, from my uncle. My grandfather's oldest brother had a son who was born with Down Syndrome. My cousin was born in the 40s, or 50s. And so during those times, for a child to be born with Down Syndrome, they were advised to put them in mental institutions, right? [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] My uncle was like, no he's my son, right? When my uncle's wife died, it made my uncle say, Oh, wow.

So what he did was—probably within about a year of my aunt’s passing—he found an assisting group home for my cousin, and he put him there to start living and he would go get him on the weekends. But his philosophy was, I get to pick the place. I'm still here to make sure that it's an adequate place. If it's not, I can move him, right? Because after his wife died, it made him realize, I'm not going to be here forever. And so when the time comes for me, I want my son just to go through the normal grieving process, not be lost in a world and be thrown somewhere where I don't even know where he is, and maybe with people he doesn't know. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.]

So I think we do a disservice to our children if we don't prepare them. And I think one of the biggest disservices that we do as human beings is that we do not incorporate our demise into our planning. [Jodi-Ann: That is so powerful.] Right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And I'm not saying you got to be morbid, you got to go around dreaming about your death, but it needs to be a part of your planning process. If we know that death is inevitable, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah. Yeah!] why do we not plan for it? And I think that that's why there's such a fear, and that is why when Jesus ring the doorbell, people go running, right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] But even more so, as Christians--if we say that we know we're gonna get eternal life, and that's who we want to go see, why do we still fear it?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Do you know that song, *sings and claps* “I wanna be ready. I wanna…” it's like, do you want to be ready, though? *chuckles* You better get your-get your house in order. *laughs*

Angela Thomas: But here's the thing: I think—and this again, this is just my opinion—[Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] I think religion has confused people as to what “ready” means. [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] Because there is no perfection. You can't obtain it. So I think that that's why people are so fearful because it's like, oh, my God, did I do enough? And really, the best way to look at it—and hopefully a lot of religious folks don't come after you [Jodi-Ann: chuckles] and nor me—but if a thief was on the cross, and he found salvation, that's hope for everybody. It's never too late, I don’t think. Right? That's just what I think. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, no, I hear it. And what I like about this conversation is it's the conversation I think people are afraid to have is to really interrogate religion and its role in our lives and faith and our beliefs, what that enables us to do and some ways that maybe we need to rethink. [Angela: Yeah.] Not, like, whether we're faithful, but rethinking our actions and, like, how we can do our part. [Angela: Right.] So I don't, like, you know, I don't want religious folks coming after us, because I think we're trying to have honest conversations about navigating health, navigating death, and faith and what preparation looks like. Right? Like, [Angela: Yeah.] and I think this is a very real conversation. So no, I appreciate that. 

So before I let you go, [Angela: Yes.] we have to talk about the hair. [Angela: laughs] We have to do it, it's mandatory. *laughs* While I think, like, hair is important for women of color, in general, it is a big deal in the Black community. And then then we think about chemotherapy and potential hair loss. And I think, like, in the context of cancer people are like, “Are you alive?” Right? That should mean more than what you look like. And you're like, well, that's a false choice. I could also be cute, like, I don't know why. *laughs* Like, that is also important. I didn't go through chemotherapy, well, they weren't sure what the path would look like after this, if they couldn't get everything for my surgery. But because the incision was right at the base of my neck where the tumor was, I was like, “Okay, so what am I going to do with my hair, I'm gonna be in a hospital, do I need to shave it, because if y'all are going to shave it, I'm going to shave it first, to make sure you have space for these incisions.” And that was part of the conversation with my surgeon. And other people are like, “Why are you talking about your hair?” and like, it becomes part of the planning process. [Angela: Correct.] And a legitimate, valid, important part of the process. Like, not minimal at all. And so, you know, as you knew that you were going to go through chemotherapy, how did you navigate hair loss, potential hair loss, and you know how you felt about yourself as a result of that? Like, what did you do?

Angela Thomas: I guess it has to start-I was born, you know, my mother said that I was born with a head full of hair, right? And as a little girl I always had very thick hair, very long hair. And I remember as a little girl being in elementary school, boys passing by and by pulling my hair. I remember the Saturday rituals of on Friday night we got our hair washed, the girls, and my grandmother would oil it with this god awful smelling junk.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Was it the sulfur thing? I had a sulfer-

Angela Thomas: Yeah, Glover's. Glover's Mane.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yes! Oh my God, why do I have to walk around smelling like that? But go ahead. *laughs*

Angela Thomas: Yeah. But my hair was, like, really, really thick. And so, and then Saturday you got your hair pressed. You know. That in itself was… *sighs* anyway, only to get it put in ponytails, you know? I don't know. And you may, they may let you get a little bump or whatever. But I said all of that just because my hair has always been a part of my identity. And people have always complimented me on my hair for as long as I can remember. 

And when I was old enough it was my calling card. [Jodi-Ann: Heyyyy *giggles*] Right? Guys, would always like, “Oh my god, is all the hair yours?” You know? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah, yeah.] And then I always had very thick, long eyelashes. My oldest son has my eyelashes. My younger son, he has thick eyelashes. So both of them got my eyelashes. But those two things, my eyes and my hair, were my calling card too. And I was in the dating scene. When I got married, when I was dating, when I was dating my ex he was like, you know, that was his thing. It was my hair, my hair, my hair. 

And my beautician, she had been my beautician for close to maybe ten years when I got my diagnosis. About a year and a half prior to getting my diagnosis I had decided to stop using chemicals on my hair and I had gone natural. But maybe two or three times a year I would go and get silk pressed and I would let her do the silk press. And so I went in and let her do the silk press, and I told her, I said, “Look, I may be coming to let you cut my hair, take it all off, you know, I got diagnosed with cancer and I’d rather you cut than to let chemo take it out.” Right? Because to me, letting it fall out due to chemo was allowing cancer to take something. If it was going to come out, I would rather cut it off, right? And she was like, “No, I can't cut it.” And I'm like, “Yeah, let's go ahead.” I said, “Let's do this.” Let's do this silk press before I start chemo, let's do this silk press. And then when I come back, we're just going to go ahead and take it off. 

So I said, “Hey, I'll come in, right before I start chemo. And you can shave it for me.” She was crying. She was like, “I can't do it. I can't do it.” And I'm like, “Girl, get yourself together.” [Jodi-Ann: Are you crying? *giggles*] Yeah, that’s what I said, it's just hair. She's like, “Angela, I can't do it.” And I'm like, “Girl, get your self together. I'll see you in two weeks.” 

So I go in two weeks, and I'm like, “You ready?” And she literally got the scissors and she was like, “I can't do it. I just cannot do it.” And she said, “There are a few people who, even though they say their hair is gonna fall out, there are a few people who it doesn’t. You may be one of those individuals. You’re being premature. Don't do it.” She said, “I’ll make a deal with you. If your hair starts coming out, I'll put my big girl panties on. And I'll cut it for you. But let's just let's just wait.” [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And I'm like, “Okay. Okay.” So I went through round one. First round of chemo I’m like, hmm. Probably a week, maybe two weeks after the first round. I don't know what made me want to brush my hair. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.]

And it started coming out. And it shook me to my core. I was mad. I was mad at myself. I knew it was going to happen, and I allowed someone to take me off of my path of what I wanted to do all because they weren't comfortable. Right? And I did, I felt like I put myself in an emotional situation that I didn't even have to deal with had I just went ahead and shaved my hair. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Right. So I was mad. And so I had to stand there and get myself together. And I'm like, see, this is what this is what I wanted to avoid. You knew, you knew, you knew, you knew. But then after a while, I realized that part of it was I wasn't really ready to cut my hair either. Right? [Jodi-Ann: Mhmm] Because anyone who knows me knows me well enough that if there's something that I really want to do, you can't talk me out of it, you know. Her not being able to cut it helped me in my part of not really ready to cut it either [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] because it had been such a part of my identity.

Jodi-Ann Burey: It, like, it gave you out right? [Angela: Oh yeah!] Like if you really wanted the hair cut, the hair would have been cut.

Angela Thomas: It would have been cut. [Jodi-Ann: But she got, yeah. It gave you an out.] Because I would have taken the scissors out of her hand and start cutting it, and it would have forced her to cut it if I really wanted to.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, she's like, “You can't walk out looking like that now.” *laughs*

Angela Thomas: Yeah, yeah. Having everybody believe that you came out of my shop looking like that. Exactly. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah. *laughs*] So, but I still got angry, right. And I don't, you know, I was like *deep sigh*. I knew, I knew. And so when I got over it I just, you know, I went under the counter, got the clippers, and I took it all off. And when I came in the living room...the boys was like, “Huh?” And they were in shock. They were like, “Are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?” I said “Yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine.” And they said, “Why?” I said, “Because I combed it and it was coming out and I'm not gonna let cancer just take it piece, by piece, by piece. You know, I'm just, so I just took it off. Because when I took it all off, and I looked in the mirror and I'm like oh, you have a perfectly round shaped head. Girl, let me tell you something. I realized my head was perfectly round. I was cute as hell. Girl, I got me some big earrings. [Jodi-Ann: Yes.] And they was like, “Are you gonna do a wig?” Ah hell no. [Jodi-Ann: A wig on this? Do you see this?] Ah, you see this!? Girl, look here. And people would stop and say, “Oh my god, girl, your head is fierce. You're rocking the bald.” Thank you. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And kept pushing, kept pushing. And girl, when I was really feeling myself and pop the makeup, oh girl, you couldn't tell me nothing. Yeah, nothing.

Jodi-Ann Burey: I love that, like, on the other side of it you’re just like, “Oh, wait, hold up. Who's that girl? Yes!”

Angela Thomas: What! I was like, “Oh my God, yeah!” And then I would see pictures and I found me some, like, these aviator shades. [Jodi-Ann: Oh yeah.] Oh, when I put those on, I was like, “Oh my... Oh, you can't tell me nothin’.”

Jodi-Ann Burey: So then, what happens when chemo’s done? How do you transition back? Right? With your perfectly round head. *laughs*

Angela Thomas: It started growing back and it grew back, you know, oftentimes what a lot of people don't understand--and I knew this because I have an oncology background, oftentimes people’s hair will grow back a different texture. And this time it was very fine [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] in the beginning. I made the decision that I wouldn't grow it completely out again, because I love the freedom of just getting up going. I had a standing every week beauty shop appointment, right. And I would spend three hours because it would take literally two, two and a half hours just for my hair to dry, because that's how long and thick it was. And even when I trimmed my hair, or cut it, because it was so thick, it still took about two hours for it to dry, sitting under the dryer for two hours. And I asked myself, what was more important to me. And for me, personally, I had more important things to do than to sit under the dryer for two, two and a half hours. 

Time became so important to me, I value my time and how I want to spend it and what I want to do with it, right? And even going through treatment; negotiating my appointments and how my appointments went out. The best thing they did for me was give me that calendar where I could go in there and reschedule and move my appointments around. Because in the beginning, like, they would give me: Okay, 7:00AM blood work, and then I would maybe have a two or three hour lag. And then, you know, pet scan and whatever then chemo. I was like, excuse me. Hello? Y'all not the one with the tumor. [Jodi-Ann: Yep.] And I don't want to be here with y'all all day, I have things to do. If I am on a time crunch, I’d like to do some stuff. So I don't wanna sit here with y’all. So I'd go in there like, “No, no, move this around. No, no.”

Jodi-Ann Burey: “Let's look at the calendar again.” I love that empowerment. Right?

Angela Thomas: Like, move it around, no. And then if I just couldn't do it, then I learned that they had different classes. So it'd be, whether I want to go do meditation or yoga or learning about different teas or whatever it was. But it would be what I wanted to do. And I could fill that time, but I would compress that day. So instead of me being there eight hours a day, I could compress it down to four hours a day, or whatever, because it was my time. Look, you're not going to get to take my time away from me. And I think that's what they forgot. I think that people forget. And yeah, it may not be perfect and you can't do it always, but it shouldn't be all the time. 

I met with one of the patient advocates and I said, “Listen, y'all have to do a better job at recognizing that people are fighting for their lives. And you have to be able to think about that, that people don't want to waste their time. At least I personally don't want to waste my time in here. And you have to be more accommodating for that.”

Jodi-Ann Burey: And in some sense, like when you're sharing about your patient this week, who has terminal cancer and your conversations with the spouse of trying to refocus the value on time. What do you do with your time? The lessons of time and my time, my mental energy, my emotional energy becomes way more important to me than it was before. [Angela: Mhmm.] Way more. I've said no to money, like, “Oh, hey, can you come and do this?” Because I do a lot of public speaking. I'm like, “I don't want to do it. No.” Like we said, “No, no. That's it. I don't want to do it.” Because my time is so important. I wonder for you, you know, as we wrap up here, who do you think this experience turned you into?

Angela Thomas: Oh, wow, that's a good question. Oh, wow...I really own who I am, and I make no apologies for it anymore. I owned who I really am. And I like...I like me. I learned to like me. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] I learned to like me. And I strive to be better each day, better than I was the day before. But I've learned to give myself grace if I'm not. Because that's what each day is for, is to try again. Right? So I learned to give myself grace in the past. I wasn't always so gracious to myself. And I had to realize that if I extend grace to others, why wasn't I willing to extend it to myself?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a journey that a lot of people don't realize they need to be on. And I think that's a journey a lot of people are on of finding grace for yourself. [Angela: Mhmm] My dad doesn't put it as beautifully as you did. But he says, “it's not YOLO is YODO, ‘cause every day you get to live another life but there’s only one thing that's going to kill you.” *laughs* He's like, “No, it's not that you only live once, you only die once. Every day you can live another, you can live another life.”  

Angela Thomas: That's great. I like that. You can’t. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Yeah. And the other thing that I I learned from that is, it's okay to acknowledge one's flaws. Like one of the things that I did was I had a conversation with my boys, about when I look back over my experiences as a parent, and how I raised them and some of the rules and some of the things that I did. I did them based on number one, sort of the way that I was raised. ‘Cause parenting doesn't come with a handbook, right? If I could go back, I would listen more, and give them more of a voice. And just sat down and went over some of the things and some of the decisions I made, explained to them where my head was, and apologized. So, I think it makes you become reflective and...especially once I went to COVID and I was really, really sick. One of one of the big things is that whenever I do leave this world whenever that is, I don't ever want them to wonder or think about or, you know, some of the saddest things that I hear is that I really didn't know my mom and my dad, like they were my mom and my dad, but they really, I want them to know me as their mother. Right? But I want them to know me as a woman.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yes, as Angela. Yeah, yeah.

Angela Thomas: Who I was as a woman right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah] Flawed and all. Because I think one of the things that we do as parents, we don't want our kids to see us as who we are. Because then they go through life thinking they have this false illusion, and they don't understand. Look, I'm pretty jacked up sometimes. But I'm working on it. I'm a work in progress. But I love you. Right. And hopefully I haven't jacked you up too much.

Jodi-Ann Burey: *both laugh* That is that is the goal. That is the goal. Well, is there anything else you want to make sure you share before we say our goodbyes?

Angela Thomas: Cancer is, cancer is a bitch. [Jodi-Ann: Yup.] But it can be kicked in the ass. You just have to, to kick it with everything that you have. And I am a believer that your mental fortitude is just as important as what you bring to the table physically. So what do I mean? I mean that do what you can to take care of yourself. Because I think when your body is in good condition it helps you, so eat well, rest, exercise so that your physical housing is in great shape, but then also have your mental housing in order as well. And I'm not going to say that you're not going to have bad days. We all have bad days. And you have some... some doubt. I think I expressed that. But we all have those days where we go into the valley, you just can't stay there. 

Surround yourself with people who are willing to tell you, “Girl get your ass up. And lift your gloves up.” [Jodi-Ann: Yep.] Not people who just want to placate to where you are, you know, that's willing to give you the equivalent of a slap in the face and say, Look, now either you can fight it or not. You know, they tell you the hard truth because [Jodi-Ann: Yes, yes, you need that] a real friend will tell you the hard truth, Girl, get your ass up out’ this bed. You’ve been living in his bed for two days, you need to shower, let's do something, let's do, okay. So whatever it is for you, but you got to bring your mental toughness to the fight, too. So you have to feel empowered to know you don't have to let negative stuff stay in your space. And I don't care if it's, you know, outside people who you don't know or people that see your immediate circle. You can remove yourself or you can remove them from your circle.

I'm saying it because oftentimes when we hear the word or we get that first diagnosis, you get that sucker punch. It's a sucker punch, right? And so the first place we go, is Oh my God, am I gonna die? Okay, you got that moment. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] But then after that, then you decide, get your hands taped up, then slide your hands into your gloves, and you gotta move. Start thinking about what resources you can tap into, get all the information that you can get about your particular cancer, like use your resources, talk to your forums to say, ‘Hey, can you go through my medication profile and tell me, what should I be avoiding.” All of those things help in your recovery. If they got you on steroids, you gonna be crazy. Call it, you know, if they just make you crazy.  [Jodi-Ann: Yeah, they do.] They do. They make. Oooooh. So. Okay, so if they tell you and be on steroids, I'm gonna tell you right now I'm giving you fair warning. They're gonna make you crazy.

And okay, your bills, and things still go on just because you have cancer those things don't stop. So who do you trust that you can say, you know, so if you're single or whatever, okay, I need you, I may need you to take this over for me. Or I may need you to glance over just to make sure I'm not missing anything. Right. So before you start everything, get your...make sure you have all your affairs in order. You don't ever know what the side effects to the chemo may be. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah] You don't know. Right? 

People think that if they prepare, if they do things, they're giving up? No, that’s just called business sense. When you go buy a car, before you pull off the lot, will they let you pull off the lot without the insurance? [Jodi-Ann: *chuckles* No, they will not.] They will not. Okay, [Jodi-Ann: It will not happen.] It will not happen. Right? So when you get to a diagnosis, and you get your breath back, right? All right, you need to have a medical power of attorney. You need to have a financial power of attorney. You need advanced directives. These are all things that need to be taken care of before you get one drip, drip, drip drip of chemo. Well who do you want to make your medical decisions for you until you can get your shit back together? Who can pay your bills for you until you, because you don't want to come out and you find out that you behind on your bills and stuff because then you pay in late fees unnecessarily because you had a bad reaction to something and you couldn't get your stuff together, you can't nobody, nobody can access your stuff, right?

So these are all things that need to be considered. Yes, you want the best and you want to survive, you're going to fight but you don't know what the side effects are going to be or what's going to happen. So while you have the capacity to get all those things in order.

Jodi-Ann Burey: I hear that and I think that can be scary for anyone. And it can be scary, if you're younger, scary if you have kids. I had to do that for the first time. Got a will get a will at 32. [Angela: Yep.] Advanced directives really think like, what do I want to happen with my body [Angela: body, yup]. I don't, you know, put together all the passwords for everything that my family would need. I had [Angela: Correct.] copies of things and had told, like, my sister, this is where they are [Angela: Correct]. I even did some other stuff too. Like I went through my apartment. And I was like-

Angela Thomas: Yes, hide all these toys. Cause look here, you don’t want the people running across you running you like wooo! [Jodi-Ann *laughs]

Jodi-Ann Burey: I was like, okay wait hold on. I was like yo, if I go I don’t want my mama… *laughs*

Angela Thomas: uh-uh. Mmm. uh-uh. Yes. Pack up all your little stuff put all you know

Jodi-Ann Burey: Get your house in order *chuckles*

Angela Thomas: Get your house in order. Get your house in order. They be coming through like, O-okay! I saw that from a scene in, oh what was that show I used to watch, The L Word. [Jodi-Ann: Oh yeah. I love that show.] Me too! And one of the guys and his mom came through there. She was like, I was like, Oh my God. Oh, I said yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Get your house in order.

Jodi-Ann Burey: You ain’t gonna remember me with the stuff that I keep under my bed.

 Angela Thomas: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Pack all your lil stuff up. Yeah, yeah. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Well, thank you so much Angela, this I think everything you're saying--we have very different experiences. And I feel like a lot of parts of your story resonates with me, and as I'm listening to, I'm kind of mad at myself, because I wish I had this conversation three years ago. I wish, [Angela: Why?] Because when I was going through what I was going through, I felt so alone. I felt so isolated. I didn't have the language or the space to talk about this in a really nuanced way. You know?

Angela Thomas: Well, that’s why you're doing what you're doing. And I wish that your platform would have existed nine years ago. I didn't have a support group. And we didn't have anything like this. But everything in due season. Everything in due season. And now, when Brown girls, or Brown boys go through this, they are not alone. And that's why I didn't mind sharing my story with you when I ran across your podcast. And I mean, I was taking in episode one. And I, for two days I listened to, got caught up and listened to the whole season one. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And after the first episode, I had to send a message to you saying, “Oh, my God, you're onto something. I needed this nine years ago.” Because here's the thing why: If I have a pain in my chest or something like that, the first thing is like, Oh, my God, it’s back. Right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] There are certain things that I still cannot do. And it's a remnant of the cancer. Like I've survived it and because I'm a survivor, people think, oh, life is back to normal. [Jodi-Ann: It's not] No, it's not. It's not like, I have a new normal. Yeah, and I'm thankful for it. Please don't get me wrong. I am so thankful for my new normal. And in some ways, my new normal is better in a sense of who I am as a woman, right? But I can't do my crunches or my pull ups, my cross, I can't because I have sternal wires in my chest. I can't do that. My stamina would never be like I used to do four hours of sleep, and I'm good to go. Listen here. No, no, I never got my eyelashes back. Never. They, that thick full, no. I will actually be seeing somebody try to add some eyelashes. Right? But here’s what’s funny. Damn hair on my legs want to come back? Can I have my eyelashes and the hair on my legs go. I’m like what the hell?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Your eyelashes went to the hair on your legs. *laughs*

Angela Thomas: Like what's really going on? I understand what you're saying, but in due season. And I think that what you're doing is outstanding. And I have shared your podcast with so many who I know have either battled cancer and still feel alone because they won the battle. But they're dealing with the aftermath of it. And they don't. ‘Cause see, here's the thing. Yeah. Once you get over it, people don't want to really talk to you anymore. [Jodi-Ann: Facts.] They feel like you should be through talking like, Girl why are we still talking about this? And so what happens is people stop talking. And when they stop talking, they internalize and they have, so it's just like they suffer in silence. And I think what your podcast does is allow us to know that Oh, so it's not just to me, it's okay, other people are feeling this way, and I'm not crazy.

So don't don't, don't stop doing what you're doing. I'm appreciative of it. And I wanted people to feel empowered to advocate for themselves, because here I was in healthcare, and still almost was misdiagnosed. And had I not pushed the envelope. I may not be here, because if I would’ve listen to him, and took some Protonix, you know that they could have wrapped yourself around my heart or, you know, whatever. And it would have been a different outcome. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] So when you feel like something is wrong, you keep pushing and pushing. And until you find someone who's willing to listen to you and get to the bottom of what's going on with you.

 Jodi-Ann Burey: Even now, to this day. I don't say Oh, when they found the tumor. I think when I found my tumor. Remember when I told you something was wrong with me? Remember, when I kept coming into this office? I found it. Maybe I don't own an MRI. You don't have an MRI in my bedroom. But it was me that was pushing that and I think that sense of ownership. And we've been talking about that, knowing your body. Having a voice, knowing your power to choose your physician, pushing for what you want. Making plans. You know, understanding the vision of your life, that is your power. And we all have that. We all have that.

Angela Thomas: Yes, ma'am.

[Theme music begins]

Jodi-Ann Burey: Black cancer is created, edited, and produced by me Jodi-Ann Burey. Thank you so much, Angela for sharing your story with us. To make sure that other Black cancer stories become center to how we talk about cancer, rate, subscribe if you have Apple podcast, leave a review. Check out our website at blackcancer.co and on Instagram @_black_cancer. Trauma comes with endless wisdom for ourselves and those around us. Tell someone you know about Black Cancer.