Full Episode Transcript

Season 2 | Episode 5: Nobody But Me (with Angelica Garcia)

Transcribed by: Eryn Strong, Hannah Rosentreter, Gina Marioni, Sonia Montejano, Elizabeth Jarvie, Kisa Nishimoto, Leina Megurikami and Jamie Fischer

Running Time: 1:20:00

Angelica Garcia: Well, if I wasn’t a woman of color, if I didn't have an accent and my name was different, would I have gotten a different treatment or would I have been...just treated differently? I do think about that all the time but I try not to allow that to overtake my energy. Without the thyroid, I already have very low energy that I gotta choose, where would I use it. So... *laughs*

[Theme music begins]

Jodi-Ann Burey, as host: Welcome to Black Cancer, a podcast about the nuances of our lives as people of color told through our cancer journeys. I'm your host, Jodi-Ann Burey. On today's show, Angelica Garcia joins me to talk about self advocacy as women of color and how sustaining that work needs to be-for ourselves and for our families in the US and abroad. Through her experiences caring for her cousin's cancer journey in the US, her father's cancer journey in Colombia, and then her own years-old cancer scare coming back to haunt her right at the start of a pandemic. Where do we put our energy and focus as we navigate the challenges of our lives? How do we integrate our identities with our traumas? Here's my conversation with Angelica. 

[Theme music fades out]

Jodi-Ann Burey: Today’s Inauguration Day. We have Madam Vice President, first Black woman, first South Asian woman, first woman of any race to even, hold that role. And when you and I first met, quote on quote, [Angelica: Mmhmm.] *chuckles* it says you were speaking at the Future for Us virtual conference that Sage Quiamno had put on for women of color professionals. And I'm sitting here at my computer—it was an all day thing—so I'm in and out of stuff, right? [Angelica: Mmhmm.] So I'm coming in, and I hear you speaking and I’m like, you know, this woman, she's amazing, she was so cool, she's, you know, giving really good content and advice. And at one point during that, you disclose that you're a cancer survivor. And I just stopped. Everything I was doing I had to, I just stopped. Because...I think it's important to me to see women of color doing incredible, amazing things that bring them joy, that, you know, fulfill their, their goals, their ambitions, whatever. And then when there are parts of them that are mapping on to other parts of who I am, it just hits me in a different way. And I'm feeling that today, with with Kamala Harris. Madam Vice President Kamala Harris, let me respect her. *laughs* And so as soon as that happened, I don't even know what you said after that. *both laugh* So they're like hundreds of people on this call [Angelica: Mmhmm.] from all over the country, mostly, if not all women of color. What made you want to share that story so publicly? I don't know if this is what you were feeling. But I heard a bit of a pause, like a [Angelica: Mmhmm.] so I like, I know she's about to drop something. I didn't know what you're gonna drop but I could tell that you're about to share something really vulnerable. And so I'm just curious, like, what drew you to share that story at that particular conference?

Angelica Garcia: It was exactly a month after I had my surgery. So it was very, very recent. Just knowing that it was a safe place for me just to bring exactly who I am. And cancer is part of who I am now. Right? It's not something that is referring to me. It's, it's part of Angelica Garcia now. So I feel that having the platform for...by women of color, right? Just being able to tell our stories the way they are, whether they're present or past, right? I think it was just like, having that safe place, allowed me just to share with whoever was listening. And I remember the topic was more about demystifying financial wellness, but it's like, it goes back to the intersectionality that we all have, right? I mean, we as women of color, just we just don't fit in one box. We are multidimensional and and I think that was a part of saying, my background and my experiences as an immigrant and a mother, and being single and being all these things. So now, I'm in corporate America, but then in addition to that, I'm dealing with this diagnosis that was so new to me...But I think that just allowing others to see me, who I am, allows them to connect. If they have experiences that are just like mine or similar experiences, or they know someone, right? Because I feel that that's how we are really building our networks. And that's how we really are able to support each other when I can say, “Yeah, I know Jodi-Ann and this is her story,” it’s not just like, I know the Jodi-Ann that I see on social media, but I know her, I can tell who she is. So I think that just having that safe place is what really allowed me to do that.

Jodi-Ann Burey: I love that you said that around, “Not just Jodi-Ann from social media, but I know her.” And when you're in spaces where you get to actually know people…that improves your wellness, right? And I think that helps unlock these other parts of who you are. And so there's this concept around the eight dimensions of wellness, right? There are different aspects. So social, physical, intellectual, emotional, spiritual, environmental, occupational, financial. [Angelica: Mmhmm.] And so like hearing you talking about financial wellness, and having kind of, other parts of your wellness being met around this social part, this intellectual part to be able to connect with other professionals who are also women of color, in some ways can unlock say, “and then I'm also going to talk about my like, physical health too-what's going on and with my cancer story, and how that's even impacting me emotionally. Like, let me give some space for that.” And it was just this moment of realness that I really appreciated because sometimes when you're just like, on the internet, or people just see you, as you know, look at Angelica, she's like kicking ass in corporate America, right? [Angelica: Mmhmm.] Then this bubble of your occupational wellness keeps growing and growing and growing, and maybe can compress other parts of you...And so being in those safe spaces, I feel like, maybe can create some balance. I mean, I wish I did remember all the other stuff that you said, because financial wellness is very important to me. *chuckles* But after you dropped that, that just opened up so much, and I just felt so drawn to you and I've never even met you before. Before that. And I'm just like, so grateful to have you in my network and in my circle, and to know you also, more now.

Angelica Garcia: I agree. We can just put on the face of I am this title of this company. And then once my day’s gone or over at work, then I'm going to put in this, or face of, this is who I am with my kids...And then once I go outside, or once I join a Zoom meeting then I get to be the Latina or they are like I just can't, it's just too much work, mentally and physically. I just didn't have capacity. I don't, I still don't have the capacity to deal with all that. So it was really a matter of this is me, right? Like, I just can't...pretend to be someone I'm not and I can’t just leave part of me outside out the door waiting for me for when I'm done. Now I'm gonna come back, I'm gonna bring that and embrace it again. Right? So I, I feel that it is important and and I do believe that, you know, maybe for someone what’s important to hear about my experience as an immigrant, and maybe for somebody else was important to hear about my experience in corporate America, and maybe for someone what’s important to hear, hey, she's a Latina, that she's also battling cancer, right? So I feel that us, we shared our stories, it allows us to connect closer with people, because what's important to you could not be as important for someone else. But if I never got to share that experience, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation today! 

Jodi-Ann Burey: We would never meet. We would legit [Angelica: Yeah!] never meet, I don't think it would happen. *chuckles* Or see, you like, there’s so much power in telling your story, and like being yourself. Like I feel like I can be myself around you. And it makes me believe my own experiences. It validates me and affirms me in a way that I don't get in a lot of other places. And I think when you're talking specifically about health issues, particularly for women of color, to be believed is so important. That can change the trajectory of your health and your life outcomes. If someone who has an M.D. behind their name, or someone in the healthcare field can just believe you. [Angelica: Mmhmm.] And so what did it mean for you in your own journey, the process with yourself and with your doctors and your-your whole journey of just, just being believed? 

It was a long process because I...It was about five years ago when I was first told, “It looks like you have cancer.” And it was actually the day before Thanksgiving, when I received a phone call from my doctor. And this is just my primary care doctor, right? This is not a specialist or any sort of, you know, other doctors that I have seen at the moment. And she just called me and said that the ultrasound that I've had showed the right side of my thyroid could have cancer. Sadly, it was just a phone call, I was at work. There was not empathy whatsoever on, “Hey, you know, like, let me just bring you into the office and just have this conversation.” It was just like, “Unfortunately—” and these are her words, “Unfortunately, it's the day before Thanksgiving. So I know you're not going to be able to go in and get the biopsy that you need. So you can’t actually be diagnosed and we just gotta wait.” And, and I will say that [Jodi-Ann: Oh my god.] That part of the—the journey that I felt that if I can make a difference in somebody's life is like, I want people to understand that you need to connect with people as individuals, not just in your profession, right? I, I appreciate doctors, you know, and I have a lot of respect for them, but I feel that at the same time, we need to connect with people and give them a diagnosis in a way that is more caring, is more shows more empathy. And that's based on my experience, maybe a lot of people have a different experience. Why me? Why it was done this way? I don't know. But I really wish that I would have just received a phone call from somebody and say, “We just need to do some more testing.” And then really going to a diagnosis. But not really knowing was hard. I went through biopsies, and then it came back benign. But as I said, that was several years ago. So back in 2019, I did start having pain, and I went back to the same doctor and I told her to again. And then at that moment, she did remember that she -- that we have gone through this process already. And I feel that, at that time, she had built up a relationship with me and she was a lot more careful. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] So it goes back that, you can just have that relationship that you're the patient, you're the doctor, and then we're just gonna move on into something else. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] I really believe that you have to build that relationship. And it takes time. Because this time around was a better experience. It was still getting through being seen by different doctors, going through different testing, a lot of uncertainty, not knowing that, you know, that results will come back and they will be inconclusive. I will get a biopsy, and it will come back inconclusive. I will get an ultrasound, it will get inconclusive. And then finally, I was sent for genetic testing and it's still showing inconclusive.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh my god. So at that point, are you like not even believing yourself?

Angelica Garcia: Yeah like, mmhmm, like [Jodi-Ann giggles] I don't know, at this moment. But then, at the same time, I was like, I already went through this and they said it was benign. So like nothing for me to worry about. So at that moment, it was actually the same day that at work we were told that was our last day in the office because of COVID. So, we actually transition overnight from being in the office to now having to work from home. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] At the same time, the hospitals were not doing procedures that they considered non-essential, right. So it could only be, you know, somebody have to have a—I don't know, like a heart surgery or a brain surgery that those were the only procedures being done.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yep. They're like, “Oh, I'm sorry. Do you think your biopsies are essential? Because they're not.” *chuckles*  

Angelica Garcia: “No,it looks like you have cancer. But that is not essential at the moment, you're gonna have to wait in line.”

Jodi-Ann Burey: And wait, though that's very essential to me. I need *chuckles* 

Angelica Garcia: Can you just get like, can you just tap that side of my neck and move on? But it didn’t work like that for me.

Jodi-Ann Burey: So then how did you—you're navigating working from home, having your kids home, everything's different, COVID-19 is an unknown thing that's kind of taking over not just the country but the world. Right? You have family and other parts of the world that you have to think about and worry about. And then you're trying to figure out like, do I have cancer inside of my body?

Angelica Garcia: Yeah.

Jodi-Ann Burey: What's tough for me, is like, ‘cause I've been through that, like go to doctor after doctor, a test after test. And now you have these other barriers that can make it very easy to say, I'll deal with this in six months. Right? But you're still getting tests, like, what was the driver behind continuing to pursue figuring out what was going on?

Angelica Garcia: Just life experiences, right? And my, my dad died from cancer. My cousin died from cancer. I didn't want to be the next one. And I, and I get that medicine is advanced and the technology and everything, but what if it's something that needed to be taken care of? And I—it wasn't something that I was just gonna put to rest and I'm wait for the month or, you know, a year for it to happen. I had to take ownership on that. It's my—it's my health. And at the end of the day, nobody else cares as much as I do. So, I just had to do it. It's just one of those things right? As a woman of color, you can’t just wait for things to happen to you. You just, you gotta make it happen. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: That's so real. I cannot tell you how many reflections I've had in my journal when I was going through my own processing. I'm so happy I'm Black. I'm so glad that I'm living life as an immigrant woman of color, because that inherently put this drive to constantly push authorities, you know, push institutions, that is the legacy of our people. And if I wasn't pushing to do that, I wouldn't have gotten the diagnosis, I wouldn't have known what was happening to my body. Because, you know, every door I went, and they're like, “Oh, we don't know. “Oh, it might be fine. Oh, you're working out too much.” And this inherent, not inherent, but like this learned skill—almost like it's still a trauma response. But this learned skill of believing myself over anything else. Which I mean, I'm pretty sure that's how you're still in corporate America. *both laugh* Like, Oh, no. I could, I’ma kick ass. *chuckle*

Angelica Garcia: I won’t argue that at all. I believe we are raised in a way where we kind of have to prove ourselves to others all the time. So I think that is just kind of part of who we are already. We are wired this way, right. And then if we're immigrants, even more so. We’re always constantly day over day, having to prove others wrong. Having to prove that what we're saying is a valid point. It's not something that I just made up in my mind. It's not just a pain that I decided to fill today. And I'm just gonna pop Tylenols and Advils as, you know, as many as I can. It goes beyond that. And—and yeah, I believe...but it's so funny, because at the same time, it's like, well, if I wasn’t a woman of color, if I didn't have an accent and my name was different, would I have gotten a different treatment? Or would have it been just treated differently? I do think about that all the time. But, I try not to allow that to overtake my energy. Without the thyroid, I already have very low energy that I gotta choose where, where I use this? *both chuckles* That's not gonna be one of them.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, so the record will show that there, there is a question mark around the impact of bias in your healthcare. And it'll just stay there as a question mark. And we'll just keep on pressing on. *chuckles* Spoiler alert: racism is present everywhere. [Angelica chuckles] Xenophobia is present everywhere. And I mean, yeah, I mean, I always carry that question. Would things have been different? Would I've been diagnosed sooner? Would I have gotten, you know, other care? And then there are other questions too of, if I didn't have, you know, institutional privileges as someone who's gone to college, as someone who knows how to navigate, [Angelica: Mmhmm.] you know, predominantly white spaces, would that have been different for me, right? Was I kind of cashing in on privileges in my experience, as much as I was also potentially experiencing bias. So, it's just kind of murky space that you can choose to put your energy there, or you don't.

Angelica Garcia: I agree. And you, only you know what's right for you. Right? And, and I believe education, I believe in technology, I believe in so many different things. But at the end of the day, nobody but me will feel what I was feeling. Nobody will be able to experience what I was experiencing at the same time. And I feel that one of the things that really, I take it as a learning experience is that you have to learn to advocate for yourself, because nobody else will, right? Or not to the extent that you do for the most part. So, it is important to recognize that, yes, there are weaknesses and our strengths, and we just gotta, you know, take on the strengths and take on that privilege that we do, right, that we do have. And fight for ourselves. I mean, and during COVID, that was, that was a fight. That was, that was tough.

Jodi-Ann Burey: So tell me more about that. Like, how did COVID specifically impact your experience?

Angelica Garcia: I would say the biggest impact was not having the moral support the way I would have had. [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] You know, my mom lives with us and she's, I mean, she's my rock, right? And my husband is in the same but, like, we would go to the appointments and they couldn't come in. So, go to the doctor's appointment, and I will meet with the doctor, and it will have to be a very quick appointment-they just didn't want to have, you know, physical contact with anybody. So, appointments will be short and sweet and then I will come home, and then I will relay all the information to my family...and they will be like, “So did you ask XYZ?” [Jodi-Ann chuckles] And I'll be like, “No.” And they would be like, “Oh okay, what about this?” I would say, “No, I didn’t think-“ like, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] none of these questions because all this information was just turned on me without really having the time to think through it, and act on it and ask questions and have some conversations, right? Like everything was-and I felt like everything just needed to happen. Like, I just couldn't wait, “You need to have surgery? Okay, we're just gonna make it happen.” I have to have surgery. “I need to have this other treatment? Let's just do it.” It took time to really take a pause, and step back and be like, “Is this the right treatment? Am I making the right decision?” But not having my family there was really difficult, and thanks to COVID I couldn't. I just couldn't because nobody could have come with me into the doctor's office.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And like, you need that moral support, but it's also tactical support too, right? [Angelica Garcia: Mmhmm.] Sometimes things are so emotional for you, you don't even remember maybe questions you did want to ask. [Angelica Garcia: Yeah.] Or, you don't remember the answers to the questions that you did ask *chuckles*. Like, that's why we need backup. 

Angelica Garcia: Yeah, I'll be like, “Can I bring someone? Can I record this? [Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah.] Can I FaceTime them? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Because I-yeah like you said, I will not remember. And I wouldn't remember because in the moment I was present, but I just - by the time I leave the office, and I've been told “you have cancer” or that my process went from, “We removed two lymph nodes, and they both have cancer.” And then the next appointment, I'm told, “No, there were three.” And I was like, “No, like, I know, I have bad memory, but I was told there were two.” [Jodi-Ann chuckles] Like, from two to three…I think I can still remember that. And they were like, “No, there were three.” It’s always like constantly just doubting myself too. But it does play a part, having someone there with you to kind of help you navigate the process. And I do feel that for every single person that was diagnosed last year, or the ones that are still being diagnosed, but not being able just to have the moral support there I think it's extremely important for somebody that has a cancer diagnosis.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, seriously. And especially when things can get so muddied in translation and muddied in kind of all the changes and stuff, because you had some issues too. Like you said, you know, they said they removed two, but then it was three-and all of that. So can you kind of walk us back through that? Just your medical team’s approach to what was happening and your expectations about what was happening. ‘Cause I think when we had talked before you shared that you didn't know that they were going to remove the whole thyroid, right? 

Angelica Garcia: No, it was interesting because the doctor said they have done the biopsy, they have done genetic testing, and it was only showing—which I still don't know—it was showing 50% chance of having cancer. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Which at that moment, did-my endocrinologist said the only way to know for sure is removing the thyroid, and just you know, just send it in for the lab. Then she referred me to this surgeon, so I met with this surgeon and he said, “We will go in, we will remove the right side, and we will actually send it to pathology right away while you're under the anesthesia. That way, if it does show that it's cancer, we will just remove the whole side of it. That way you don't have to then later come back and remove the other side.” [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] So that was the plan, right? So then, as you know, with COVID, all that got delayed. You know, I did hear from the doctor, that because it was a cancer diagnosis, that will put me on a priority list—which I really don't know if they said that just to make me feel better or if that was true. [Jodi-Ann chuckles] But after several phone calls, I finally got my appointment to go in for surgery. And then I went in and the doctor said, “I've done this multiple times. Once we open you, I can tell if it's cancer or not, but I'm still gonna send it to pathology.” [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And that's what they did. So I got into the surgery room-that’s just like a weird feeling. [Jodi-Ann: Right?!] I don’t even like to talk about it. It's just weird. It gives me—I don't know—ugh, there's something. There’s something about that room. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yes. Well, you know, in some spaces, I don't know what they do here in the US, but they call it “the operating theatre”. And it feels like that. First of all, at least for me—I'm curious for you—the room was way bigger than I thought. [Angelica Garcia: Mmhmm.] There are way more people there than I expected. I'm like, “Who are you? I don't-I don't know y'all.” *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: Yeah, have we met before?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Exactly. Like I felt like, should I introduce myself? Or like, what’s goin’ on? *both laugh* Which is not how that's not how surgery works, right. And everyone's just busying about. And then soon as you get there, you're out.

 Angelica Garcia: Yeah. Same.

Jodi-Ann Burey: They ask you to count to 10. And you never make it to 10.

Angelica Garcia: Yeah. *chuckles* I don't even remember being asked. I was like, “Oh, what is all this about?” It's cold. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah, very cold.] It’s bright. Like you said, a lot of people that like, I wish I knew, like, “Who are you? What are you going to be doing to my body? [Jodi-Ann: Exactly.] So yeah. And I remember waking up, right-I think that after surgery, they bring you to this other room where like, I don't know, you recover from the anesthesia or something. And I remember just being awakened by the nurse. And then like, she's just calling my name. And this is really the only thing that I remember, I don't remember to count from ten to one. I'm so glad you do. They probably did that to me. But you know that’s part of thyroid issues, is that you kind of lose memory. [Jodi-Ann: Oh, okay.] So I do have-I do have a good excuse. I don't have a thyroid-my memory has decreased. *chuckles*

Jodi-Ann Burey: Do you say that a lot?

Angelica Garcia: I do!

Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh I’m sorry I forget your name, I don't have a thyroid. *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: I just don’t have a thyroid. You know that I don't care, right? *laughs* But I do remember the nurse waking me up, calling my name, and I'm asking, “What did they did to me?” [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] Because I didn't need to ask, “Did I have cancer or not?” I just needed to find out if they removed my whole thyroid. I did have cancer. And she said, “We removed your thyroid.” And I was like *ugh*. And I remember just having that like, that *ugh* moment. [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] It’s like disappointment. I don't know. I don't know what I felt. I don't know if I was disappointed. I don't know if I was just glad that it was over with-or, just let me go back to sleep because I was sleeping so good. *laughs*

Jodi-Ann Burey: You woke me up for this? *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: I know, really? Like it's nothing I can do now, just let me go back to sleep. And they brought me into the room. And then that's when the doctor said, “We removed the thyroid, we removed a couple of lymph nodes, just as a precaution.” That was said. Nothing else was said. And I remember very clear: there were two. [Jodi-Ann: Mmhmm.] And my husband is a witness. So it's not just me. And then the following week, I have my follow-up appointment and the endocrinologist—not the surgeon—said, “But the good news is that you have the good cancer.” Which at this point I don't know why they call it a “good cancer.” [Jodi-Ann: What is that? *laughs*] I have the “good” cancer. “And then the bad news is that three out of three, had cancer.” And I was like, “Three out of three? But like three out of what? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Like the thyroid plus the three lymph nodes?” She was like, “No. The thyroid and three lymph nodes had cancer.” I say, “No. Can you go back and check your notes? Because there were only two.” And she did—it was a zoom meeting—and she went back and she said, “No, I can see on the biopsy and I can see everything. There were three lymph nodes, they all had cancer. So we just need to follow up with our treatment later on.” 

And that's that's how it all went. It went from like, it was a “good cancer”. It was supposed to be a cancer that it takes a very, very long time for it to spread. But because it had been in my body for so long, it had already spread. It had spread to the three lymph nodes. So, I went for a second opinion. I started seeing a different doctor who spent a lot of time with me and understanding what's important to me. Not only to what the test results were showing, but how I was feeling—which I believe it was a lot more important. And just put a plan in place: this is-this is what we need to do, here are the options, and you can think about it, you can talk through it with your family, and then you can call me whenever you're ready. It was never that you have to make a decision now, which I really much appreciate having that because, as I said, with not being able to have your support system there for you—just given the opportunity to process all the information and understand this is so new to me, it was a better approach than just being like, “Okay, this is what we're doing and let's just go ahead and schedule it.”

Jodi-Ann Burey: And that's wild. So you essentially received your diagnosis when you woke up and they told you that they took it out. [Angelica: Mmhmm.] And then to hear that it wasn't just there, it's spread, like what did that do to you mentally, emotionally to know that this thing that you had been trying to get sorted out, inconclusive tests, in and out, in the context of COVID, had spread?

Angelica Garcia: That's been the biggest challenge for me. [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] Just knowing that it was something that wasn't supposed to be spread, but it had. And at the moment, there were three lymph nodes, and not knowing were there any other lymph nodes that were compromised they could not have seen? You know, I think that's always been the question for me. So when I went back six months later, and received my next ultrasound, they actually showed that on the other side, there were lymph nodes also that showed that could have cancer, which prompted a second treatment, which was the radiation therapy. It's always in the back of my mind that it's just never gonna be over. I feel like, kind of like, always, it's gonna be dead. It's kind of just like hiding somewhere and then one day is gonna, like, come at you and like, scare you again. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] I believe that—and maybe other cancers are different—but I do believe that it’s just, it's just really hard to put this to rest. I believe that it's always there in your mind, it's always kind of like, I'm looking forward to my six month review, because I want to see if it's really gone. I want to make sure that it hasn't come back. It's, yeah. It's really hard to just kind of like, as I said, just take that part of your story and put it aside and think about it. I just believe that that's kind of those things where you just gotta embrace it and know that it could be there right now, as you and I speak, I can probably still have it. And I really don't know, because that's what it showed back in October. And it won't be until June when I get to find out if I'm cleared or not. So it is always there. I try not to spend my energy on thinking too much about it. I've done my part, right? I went through the surgery-surgeries, there were two. I've gone through the other treatment, I've done what I think I can do, what's under my control. And under my control is: make sure that my mind doesn't focus so much on the fact of the “what if,” because then it will definitely consume me.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, in the first episode for the podcast, Shayla and I, we both went to Sloan Kettering in New York. And we were joking about how, since our diagnoses, we have never not had an appointment at Sloan Kettering. *laughs* Right? And I think it can come off as I always have to see the doctors, and it's not a burden, I didn't realize how much I was depending on it. Because when COVID delayed my annual scan, and delayed it by just a couple months from March to June...from March to June, my whole body was so inflamed. I spent more time March to June looking up cancer symptoms than I did like the previous months, or double that, you know, prior to that. And I was so anxious, I'm like, Oh my gosh, what if it came back? What if this da-da-da-, and it consumes me I couldn't sleep. I have, like, chronic insomnia because since my diagnosis, and my insomnia was flaring, it was so distressing. And so I get into the hospital, *chuckles* get in the hospital, I'm sitting there talking to my surgeon, and I'm like taking a breath. And he goes, “So I got your scans.” I'm like *gasp*. [Angelica: *gasps*] and he's like, “You're fiiine. Everything looks greeeat.” [Angelica: *laughs*] And then I started crying, because I didn't realize how much I was holding in. [Angelica: Mmhmm.] And I really look forward to my appointments because, like you said, you reach a point where you have to advocate for yourself so much. So you're driving this, you're driving, you're driving everything. [Angelica: Yep.]And then at a certain point, you're not. I kind of use my recurring appointment as the thing that allows me to rest a little bit.

Angelica Garcia: I did the same. I, oh my gosh, [Jodi-Ann: *laughs*] I don't know how many hours I spent online researching thyroid cancer, or all these, you know, like the lab test. I was like, I don't understand any of this. So I would like to look up like my range and my number and what does that mean? I'm just like, trying to put all the pieces together so I can be as informed as possible, right? ’Cause you don't go into the doctor's office, and they say, “Okay, this is your type of cancer. Here is, you know, the prognosis, or here is, you know, some of the factors that influenced your-” like, you don't go into any of that. You just go in and they say, “You have cancer and here is the treatment that we have for that.” That’s it. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah. Yeah.] It's up to you to like, learn everything else. [Jodi-Ann: Yes.] And it's like, I don't have time to go and do all that, but then I have to, I have to make the time, right? Because then-[Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] and like you said, it just consumes your time and energy. I spend hours *chuckles* just laying on the couch, looking at the iPad, trying to figure it out. [Jodi-Ann: *laughs* Yes!] And now I know all the different thyroid cancers, now I understand why they call it a “good cancer.” Now I know how many stages there are, now I know the treatments...but it's like, it's taken a year almost for me to get to that point. And then I look back and it's like, I just spent so many hours doing all that, and I wish I could have had that time to—I don't know—read a book, listen to a podcast, just like, do something fun. But then instead I was just reading and learning about cancer. It's like, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] really?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, your whole wellness chart gets out of whack because you have to put a lot of energy towards just a few buckets. How did you balance all of that and do your job? Like, corporate America is not for the faint of heart! *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: Oh, I don't know. I don't know how I did. I don't know. I don't know. It was hard. It was really hard, because the surgeon—and it goes back to that relationship and being able to listen—but I remember the surgeon said, “Oh, no worries, like, you can get back to work in like, a couple of days, you'll be fine.” And I listened to him, right? Like I was like, okay, he told me I can go back, and I had my surgery, I believe, like on a Wednesday. And then by Monday, I was working. And then my manager sees me online, she's like, “What are you doing?” I was like, “I don't know, I was told I can work!” And then she was like, “You just had like, a major surgery-like, you're working!” I was like, “I feel fine.” But I think-I think I felt fine because I was at home, so it really didn't feel like working, right? It was part of that whole [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] you know, work from home and being with the COVID and everything else going on, it quite didn't feel like I'm just, like, working so much. Because I was you know, I login, I’m at home anyway so might as well work. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] It was a bad mistake. Oh, it was so bad. [Jodi-Ann: *chuckles*] I wish I listened to my manager. It was bad! 

Because my doctor never asked me what I do for a living. [Jodi-Ann: Exactly! *laughs*] Because then he would understand I'm on-I'm on conference calls all day long. Which, I got to a point where I would be in tears talking because I had to put so much effort, because my vocal cords were, you know, not damaged, but they were impacted by this surgery. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And my hormones, obviously were just, like, whacked out of my surgery. And I'm still getting used to all these different things, like everything was a long process. And I just didn't give myself and my body the time to heal. I rushed through it. And I did that because it was kind of like the expectation, that “Don't worry, you can get back to work, like, right away,”  [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] without really understanding, like, what does work mean to me? And it was a big mistake. And it actually led into a second surgery because I was putting so much pressure talking, like, towards the end of the day, I would lose my voice. I would have times where I couldn’t even talk. And it was very frustrating for me because my voice was, I feel, the only thing that I had to support my team; being able to talk to them, being able to give them encouragement. And not having that was hard. It kind of reflected on my dad's experience where he had a cancer where he couldn't talk anymore. 

And I was afraid that this was going to be long term for me, not really knowing what was causing it. And you know, it caused infections and I went through all different antibiotics. I had to have a second surgery, and all this only prolonged my recovery as opposed to giving myself the time that I needed and just heal--give myself two weeks, heal and then get back to it?—It was kind of like, just pushing it and pushing it and pushing it. But once again, for us, it's so-we're so used to that, right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] We're so used to always having to push more and more until we get to a breaking point. And I felt that I got to that point, I got to like a breaking point. Where it was like, I really gotta understand, and I gotta listen to my body first, not only the needs of my job. Because my job—I'm often reminded—if I'm not on my job one day, they will continue functioning.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh, yeah, the business will keep going. *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: They will be fine! I have to tell myself that sometimes. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] So, I don't know how I did it. But I think that we're just so used to doing that.

Jodi-Ann Burey: I feel like as women of color, we're so used to advocating for ourselves that we don't advocate for ourselves. Us. Our personhood. *with emphasis* What we need. On a visceral level. On the way that sometimes what we need goes counter to other people's expectations of us, our expectations of ourselves. To just kind of settle in of—what do you need? Angelica, what do you need?

Angelica Garcia: Right? Ah, yes, a lot. I like—you just said it beautifully. We’re so used to advocating and fighting. But at the same time, we don't take the time to recognize what we need as individuals and to really set that priority. I think that we tend to put everything and everyone else on the top of the list and we slowly start becoming the bottom, right? We don't focus on what we need, mentally, physically, emotionally. And the emotional piece of dealing with cancer—it really goes hand in hand with how well you're gonna react to your treatment. Right? I felt that if you are emotionally and mentally able to deal with everything—like it doesn't matter if it’s chemo, radiation, surgery—it's not going to have the best outcome. But we're not used to that. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] We're not used to saying, “Here are my priorities, here is what I need.” Even to be able to vocalize that, like, I don't think I can articulate to you. If you asked me that question, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] I don't think that I can say, “Here's what I need,” because I just tend not to put myself as a priority. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh yeah. It's just like, “Ah… I'm fine.” 

Angelica Garcia: I'm not fine! I'm not fine. And, but we’re so used to being, “Oh, I’m good.I'm fine.” It's like, “No, let's like—how are you really feeling?”

Jodi-Ann Burey: I think when I do little things to avoid the question. Like, people message me and say, “How are you doing?” I'll just text back, “You know, we out here.” [Angelica: *laughs*] And then we move on with the conversation. You know, we out here. *chuckles* Because, am I fine?  [Angelica: *chuckles*] Do you see what's happening in the world? *laughs* What's happening in the world? What's happening with my body? What's happening? No, I'm not fine! I'm never fine.*chuckles* I’m never fine.

Angelica Garcia: But see, I feel that we don't do that because then we're gonna be perceived as we're not grateful enough. We're gonna be perceived as we're just complaining. We're gonna be perceived as others have it worse than you do. Right? I felt that there’s just so many things that we're so afraid of sometimes being judged by the way that we truly respond to our feelings that we tend to just hold them back, right? Because-and I say this, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] and I mean it because—like you said at the beginning—most of my family are in Colombia, right? So if you ask me how I'm doing, it’s like, “Oh, my gosh, I have cancer, and I'm, I'm working 50-60 hours a week!” 

So I feel that it's just so important to really recognize that like, what does that mean? When somebody asked me like, “How do you feel?” What does that really mean? How do I feel when I'm only looking at myself as a person? Then I can tell you exactly how I'm feeling. 

“I'm struggling with this.” 
“I'm having a hard time with that.” 
“I feel like I need help here.” 

Like, if I can have that I feel that we become more sincere and we can better help others, than when we're always saying, “I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.” Because then I feel that you're not opening the doors for others to really tell you how they feel. [Jodi-Ann: That’s true.] Like you're always telling me you're feeling good, then I'm gonna be like, I don't want to tell you all the bad things that I'm dealing with. Because then I feel like I'm dealing with all this and you're good.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And I think sometimes, too, we have this anticipation that people are going to treat us a certain way if we start telling the truths about our experiences. But if it was someone else, we wouldn't react that way. Like we are fearing judgment, that we don't judge other people...in that sense. And so I'm curious for you, because, as you said, this wasn't your first time dealing with cancer in an intimate way. Can you share more about what it was like for you when you were supporting your cousin with their journey, you know, here in Seattle?

Angelica Garcia: Yes. So I-my cousin was up here in Seattle, and my family—so my mom, my brother, and I—were down in Florida. And when we found out she had cancer, my mom decided to just leave everything and moved up here so she can help her, her husband, her newborn son—and be there for them. And then eventually, I don't know--part of who we are as a culture; we are very family oriented—I decided to do the same. So, I moved from Florida to Seattle. And I often get this question like, “Why did you move?” and I don't go into so much detail, because it's so personal. But that's the reason why we moved. 

I mean, I love Florida. I love the weather. It's so close to Colombia. I love the food. I love everything about it, but family has to come first for me. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] So we did that. And I was able to see her just fight, like, literally fight day after day. She’d have to go every two weeks to receive treatment. She would go in; she'll be hooked up to this little machine where they pump all the chemo; come home--stay with that for like three days; then go back to the hospital. And then her side effects would last three or four days, she may have a week where she's feeling better. And then back at it. 

And you've gone through this week over week and kind of just, it becomes the normal for you. So I saw that, and I saw her fighting for so long that when I was diagnosed it was like what I was what I was dealing with was nothing close to what she was dealing with. So I was like, you just gotta power through it. You know, Angelica, this is nothing compared to what your cousin went through. So it was *sighs*, I don't know. Like I don't believe in a lot of things, but I will say that it definitely prepared me for that. Why? I don't know, part of life, but definitely helped me be better prepared for how to deal with it. But it was-it was really hard to see her die and she died at a very young age. But she fought for years as a stage four cancer patient. And even her oncologist said that he's never seen somebody with the type of cancer she had, at the stage she had it, to be alive for so long. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Mmmm. Yeah. How did that impact you to be so close to her in that process?

Angelica Garcia: We were very close in age. We were only two years apart. And we lived, like I literally moved like five minutes away from her house right? And I would come out to her house all the time. Whenever I could, I would be the one driving her to get chemo. And I remember-always the first day-you have to go in and you have to get your lab test and wait for your white cells results before they decide if they're gonna do treatment that day. And there were multiple times where we were just sitting in the waiting room and she would be like, “Let's just skip chemo today. [Jodi-Ann: chuckles] Let's just go- and then it will be like skipping school!” I would be like, “No! What if mom finds out? *laughs* I don’t wanna get in trouble with my mom!”

Jodi-Ann Burey: “Let's just skip chemo today. Let's go to an amusement park.” *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: Yeah, and she would have those thoughts! But I would have to remind her, “This is what's keeping you alive, right? Let’s skip chemo and then what? It's gonna impact whatever, you know, many more months this is bringing back to you.” So, no. [Jodi-Ann: chuckles] We're not skipping chemo, we're staying here! We're gonna do this together. So, it was hard. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] It was hard, but she was a fighter.  [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] No, I was...I was happy to be there for her, and with her.

Jodi-Ann Burey: That's what it kind of goes back to what you're saying about having that social support and how critical it is, it is so important to just have a person to just have those moments with, you know, to kind of keep you going and keep you present and excited to be doing this. You know, you're fighting for your life. And so she was here. How was your journey with your father's cancer? Who was in Colombia? Right? 

Angelica Garcia: Oh yeah, that's, that was really difficult. Because it was in the summer of, I believe it was 2013. I maybe got the year wrong, but...I remember being here. And then I received a phone call from one of my Auntie's down in Colombia, saying that he was sick. But I was kind of used to him being sick. He just really never took great care of himself for many years after they left Colombia. He just kind of was out there. And he drank a lot. He didn't have good eating habits. And I can go on and on. So I really didn't pay a lot of attention when she said he's sick. It's gonna like yeah, like, Oh, he just got a cold. And now he's complaining about it. And then she was not like, he is sick, like very sick, to the point where they said, he just can’t talk. And he will call me like, all the time, he will call me at least once a week to check in. If I was at work, and I couldn't answer he will just leave me a voicemail. “Hey, it's me just calling How are you doing?” And nanana, whatever it was, I will get a phone call from him. And yeah, it is true. I had not gotten a call from him. And they said, “He just can talk”. And I was like, “What do you mean, he can’t talk? Like, who can't talk?” So they said, “We don't know”. And then he went to see the doctor. And then at the same time, I decided it was time to go back to Colombia. And I had not gone back to Colombia since I had moved to the states. So it was a hard decision. I wasn't planning on going to Colombia at that time. 

And I got there—he was surprised because we didn’t tell him I was going. Because we knew he was going to be very emotional. But I got there and my cousin who is—I’m very close to her—she took me to the place where he was staying at. And he was laying on a bed and he had lost so much weight. I mean, I could not have recognized him and his face had changed. Everything about him he had changed. So I just he was laying down, I sat next to him. And I just like slowly walking up. And when he saw me he was in shock that he just started crying. And, just looking for a little—he will just be around with this little notepad that he had put together from like scrap papers. And he started looking for the notepad to start writing down what he was feeling. And then he's like, “What are you doing here? Why are you here?” 

And then we started taking him to different doctors. They said he had cancer. It was on his tongue. So his tongue had actually got stuck to the top of his mouth. That's why he couldn't talk. [Jodi-Ann: Mmmmm.] So he couldn't talk, he couldn't eat. That's when he was losing so much weight. We found the best doctor we could at the time. And they just said, “We just gotta have surgery. We got to remove the bottom left side of your jaw. We got put in a feeding tube and breathing tube,” and that's what they did. And he was diagnosed—I think it was like July—six months later, January he died. I can tell you dad, having gone through the cancer treatment with my cousin here in the states and having to have my dad go through that in Colombia—it's night and day. I mean, I would have to go outside the hospital, buy the morphine, come back, bring it and then chase the nurse down so they will give it to him. I would have to sleep on the floor next to him because there were not beds where you can be at. So I would just lay on cardboard on the floor and be next to him, I would have to beg people to feed him. I would have to be the one to buy the type of food that he needed, because the healthcare system there will not provide it. I mean, you fight for everything. 

So as I said, right, like, it's, it's really easy for me to put things into perspective, just because this situation with my dad was just extremely difficult to see; how you’re treated when you are in a country like Colombia, and how you’re treated when you are in the United States. So all that definitely helped me have a better perspective about my own diagnosis and how lucky I was to be here. And to have the medical system and to work for a company that, at least I didn't have to worry about not having money to pay for medical bills that are so crazy high.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh my god. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, there are still a lot of privileges that we hold, in a number of different ways, that can change the trajectory of our lives, of our health outcomes of, you know, these situations that we go through. And so I feel like having that perspective, having the type of support that you have, and having the ability to advocate for yourself, even with other privileges that we hold. There's so much that we have in our toolbox to support ourselves, our persons, as well as supporting our community. You know, there's a lot of a lot that we bring to the table for sure.

Angelica Garcia: Yes, and I think, some of the challenges when I look back into my own journey was having English as a second language was just another obstacle that I had to face, right. So, you add the fact that I couldn't bring somebody with me. And then I'm having to look for the right words to be able to explain what I'm feeling. And we went through that so many times, and then I'd be like, coached by my husband, he'll be like, “No. Let's rehearse this again, because this is not a sore throat.” Because, I will call the doctors and I'll be like, “I have such a sore throat,” and they'll be like, “Have you been tested for Coronavirus?” And I'll be like, “It's not COVID *chuckles* I just had a major surgery.” And then it will be because I wasn't choosing the right words [Jodi-Ann: yeah]. It was not a sore throat. It was my neck. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah] Little things like that make a huge difference. *chuckles*

 Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh, yeah. Especially if you're trying to describe pain or describe symptoms, you have to be precise. These people are not in your body.

Angelica Garcia: *chuckles* No! And then they'll be like, “Is it a dull pain? Is it a sharp pain is it …” I was like, “It’s pain!” Like what part don’t you get of that? [Jodi-Ann: Did you not hear me? I just said it’s pain!] It’s pain! How difficult can this be? It was like, it's just as simple. It's just pain, [Jodi-Ann: I told you that] I'm taking Tylenol and taking Advil. That tells you right there I have pain. And when I take it helps me. I just go to my maximum and I just can't take anymore. And they'll be like, “Well, let's go ahead and send you here.” I’ll be like “No,” I keep being sent from place to place, nurse to nurse, doctor to doctor, specialist to like, find out what's going on. But it was because I couldn't really express myself and why what's happening with me and my body? And yes, like you said, I like being able to advocate for yourself. But then now I look back. And I think about like, why did I learned is that I learned that it's so important to have a system where people with different backgrounds whose English is not their first language, can have a better way to communicate, right? I'm not saying this has to be for people who speak Spanish or people who speak—it doesn't matter if you don't speak English as your first language. It's going to be just another issue for you. And that's just the way it goes.

Jodi-Ann Burey: That is really important. I think particularly in a place like Seattle—First of all, I don't see a lot of Latinx folks around here. [Angelica: No.] Definitely not as much as New York where I'm from and definitely not as much as you know, a lot of parts of Florida. And so to just be able to communicate easily is so important. So when I was at Sloan Kettering, there were a lot of Caribbean people, a lot of Jamaican people, around. And that just made it so much easier to just be there and to express myself and to people to understand that even if I say something that's a little more extreme, they know.  [Angelica: Yeah.] It's not *laughs* [Angelica: It's cultural!] being extra, yeah. *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: I agree. It's so different. Like, we just have a different way about us, right?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yes, Oh, my gosh, this woman she came in, she's like, “I'm here to take your blood pressure.” I'm like, “I don't want you to take my blood pressure.” She's like, “Alright.” And then she kept doing it. So as she's like, forcing me to take my blood pressure I’m like, “Why do you always win?” Or I said it more in like, a possible tone of like, you know, “Why you always win me?” And she’s like, “I win every day.” *both laugh* 

So I think it's important, like, culturally, to have those moments of levity and to be understood to have that feeling of belonging, but it's also important to be able to direct your healthcare providers, so they understand exactly what you need, and understand, you know, how they can support you.

Angelica Garcia: I agree, I agree. And like you said, you know, there are things that we say that can be taken in the wrong way. And we don't mean it that way. We are joking, we're playing, we may say things that they just have a completely different meaning to us. It can just come out wrong when you’re on the other end, and I do, like, I'm very, like, I wouldn't say I like to touch people, but I like to hug and I like to be like, “Oh my gosh, you're so good!” And then on the other hand, my doctors were, like, very professional. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah. *chuckles*] And I'm like, I get it, but it’s like... and I'll be very personal. And I'll be like, “Oh my gosh, I'm so grateful! Nah-nah-nah-nah-nah.” And they'll be like, “Oh, yes. Is this done?” And I’ll be like, “Oh.” Like, “Oh, can you just, like, turn it down a little bit for me?”

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, it's like, “I'm dealing with some of the worst experiences in my life, I need to feel like I'm talking to a person.” 

Angelica Garcia: Yeah. [Jodi-Ann: laughs] Can we do that? But it’s ok, we’re learning. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: I talked a lot about, you know, being a lay person trying to express to a medical person, the level of urgency or severity of whatever I'm dealing with, and that already being a challenge. And so then when you're translating from different languages, those nuances, and some of the word choices might not get through. So I think there's kind of word choices and expressions, and how can that translate to the doctor. But then also, there might be some physicians or care teams, maybe they don't have a high tolerance of listening to people who have accents to them, right? [Angelica: Mhmm.] Or their way of speaking English is different from their own. And that can impact care. You know, or how they perceive you just their own inability and limited skills to be able to engage with people who sound differently than they are.

Angelica Garcia: Absolutely. 100%. And then add the fact that during my diagnosis, so last year, some of the appointments had to be virtual, right. So you are not able to really be there in person. Like, I speak with, like, you can see me but I speak with my hands, like, all the time.[Jodi-Ann: Mhmm.] I can just be talking and moving. Like I'm always doing this. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah, yeah.] How can I tell my doctor all these things when I can’t be that in person and, like, express all these things, because it's just not my voice. I just like to move. And like you said, not everybody can understand that. Not everybody has been exposed to all the different cultures to be able to recognize that, you know, although we are all Latinos or Latinas, we come from different countries, we come from different backgrounds. And what means one thing for me as Colombian can be very different to a Puerto Rican or to a Cuban or to somebody from Mexico, right? Just like here, right? Like, if you're here but you're from New York, it could be very different than if you're from the Midwest. 

It's all about being able to connect with people and *ugh* really, intentionally listen to people. And I think that that's the piece where we all can do better, right? It's like, and I felt that that was one of the things that-I guess it was good when I lost my voice because of this surgery [Jodi-Ann: Mhmm. *chuckles*] is that like, I had to listen better, because I couldn't talk so much. So I really had to just learn to listen a lot better to people and really pick on all those things that sometimes are not words that people can express, but our emotions or faces that they’re making, and pick up on that. I'll be like, “Hey, well, you just did this or you just said that, tell me more about it.” Because as I said with mine, it was kind of like I'm trying to describe over the phone that I’m having this pain. But then yet I just can't, you know, show you over the phone, to the person on the other line, right. It was challenging and definitely that continues to be a challenge, right. We haven't found a solution for that but it's something that as I think of, you know, our society in general, we can all find common ground on different ways to get better at it.

Jodi-Ann Burey: So in addition to improving your skills around listening and doing that deep listening, like my mom, she always says—this was when I was growing up and was a little, you know, wasn't the best, right? *laughs* She would say something reprimanding me, and I'm like, “I hear you, I hear you”, you know? And then she goes, “Do you hear me? Or are you listening?” [Angelica: Mm hmm.] 

And that nuance of that difference of thinking about listening. What does it mean to listen to someone, like, actually listening? And that work of listening can not only get people closer to each other, and getting that support that we've been talking about, but also can help save someone's life? Like, are you listening to people? So as we think about listening, are there any other tools of life, you say, you think you've picked up from navigating how cancer’s impacted your family, and how cancer’s impacted your own self?

Angelica Garcia: Yes, I will say I’m always very, or I try to be very positive and optimistic. Right? I just tried to do that because life has not been easy for me. So if I just allow myself to always be on the other side of the spectrum, I will remain there, right. So I am always looking for: What’s the bright side. How can I overcome this? What’s the good in it? 

Being diagnosed with cancer was something that I just never thought that it will be me. I have seen and I experienced so close with my cousin and with my dad, but it wasn't me. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Right? So being able to recognize that it could be you at any time. [Jodi-Ann: Oh, yeah.] Right. And, and now is this, but tomorrow it can be something worse. I think that helped me just appreciate every day. And I really mean this, I think that every day you’ve just got to recognize and appreciate what you have and really understand that it can always be worse, right. 

And I was very, very focused on my career as a professional. And I think that, you know, obviously, as I said at the beginning, as an immigrant, I want to leave a legacy behind. And to me, my legacy was I succeeded in corporate America, I'm opening the doors for other women of color, and I'm showing my daughter that path that, you know, if I can do it, you can do it, right. She was born here, but like, if I had to go through all these challenges, and I'm able to do it, like, look at you. You can do 10 times better, 20 times better than mommy can. 

But then having cancer really helped me look back and think, What's really my purpose here? It should not be just career orientated. It should not be just, you know, like, I'm making it up, I'm succeeding here in my company. It's got to really be, like, Why I am succeeding here? And I think that, as I said, just having those moments where I really needed to fight for things to be grateful for, and things to be optimistic, it was really finding: What is your purpose? And I can say that I can articulate, you know, this beautiful sentence of, “Oh, Angelica’s purpose in life is this.” [Jodi-Ann: Mhmm. *laughs*] But I do believe that, really knowing it's not about me, it's just greater than me and it’s knowing about the impact that you can make in someone's life. Like you said, right? You can be making an impact that’s like life or death, right? If you took the time to listen to somebody, instead of just like, hear what they have to say. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] It can make a difference in their life or the actions that they can take. Just knowing that no matter who you are, what position you hold in a company, how many followers you have on Instagram, how many tweeters [Jodi-Ann: Mhmm. *laughs*] I mean, all these things, it's not just about all that. It's just like, if you can make change and impact people's lives, and it doesn't have to be huge. If you do one thing at a time, one person at a time, I feel that we can make a difference. 

And I do. I do believe that just having to go through the procedures and diagnosis and you know, still have to be at home and put a smile on my face because I didn’t want my kids to, you know, see me crying or see me struggling with it. But just to show them that this is not the end, like we're gonna make it through this together no matter what. It just shows us that that is a purpose for us to be here. And it's not always because I want a better house or a nicer car. It's way-it goes way beyond that. And every day I just try to find out right, like, how…what’s my purpose? What can I do today? What did I do today that brought me happiness, or that I was able to bring happiness to somebody else and hopefully brighten somebody's day. I think that cancer helped me with that.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And this sense of, you know, this idea of it can always be worse, I think it can sound maybe invalidating to the parts of your experience that do suck. But the way to interpret that, I think, is that there's always hope. There's always hope, like, regardless of your situation, and trust me, I have been in the DARKNESS. [Angelica: laughs] And people are like, *high-pitched voice* “There's always hope,” and it’s like, “Fuck you!”... right? *both laugh* 

But to be on the other side of that darkness. [Angelica: Mhmm.] It's just like, slowly, I'm just like, oh, okay, you know, I had-I had some options and some type of way to think about my personhood, think about who I am, think about the impact that I want to make. Who's around me? What are my nieces going to think about this, you know, and just kind of, kind of get those wheels turning around. There are ways that I can support myself where I can continue to support other people, there are ways that I can advocate for others that I can turn into advocacy for myself. [Angelica: Mhmm.] There's still a place for me on this earth to do something. I think sometimes after we go through trauma, and then we go through all the darkness--because that's always there, I think at some point--then you can start getting really focused on your purpose.

Angelica Garcia: It's never been all bright and happiness, and all these great things, right? I had many moments where I just, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] I just wanted to cry and feel bad and feel sorry and look for more ways to just like, forget about all the things, and there were many times where I just wanted to talk to somebody that would just validate how I'm feeling, you know? Just tell me, “It's gonna be better.” I just wanted to hear from somebody to say “It does suck. It sucks that you're dealing with this.” Like, many times that I just needed to have that conversation. And once I had it, it was like, Oh, I feel better. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Oh, that-that really helped. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] It's not like always just looking for somebody to be like, “You got this, it's gonna be...” No, sometimes you just need to have that person that is saying, “Man, like, I'm so sorry, you're dealing with that.” And I know that a lot of people don't want to do that. And because they don't want to make you feel like you have to be sorry for yourself, but that's needed. That's so needed. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] That is so needed. There were so many times where I would be just like “Oh, who has texted me lately that says something that I know that person will say that to me?” And I need it.

Jodi-Ann Burey:  I’ve done that! You start scrolling through people, like, Who's gonna give me the real right now? *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: Yeah, yeah, you need that. It's part of the process. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] It's not. It's not going to be all great and happiness, and easy. It's difficult. It's a lot more difficult than what you and I can say here. Right? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] Going through it is extremely challenging, but it's just finding all those moments, the good ones and the bad ones.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And like, yeah, at the end of the day, it sucks. [Angelica: Mhm.] And you're still here. [Angelica: Yeah.] Like, we still out here! You know what I'm saying? *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: Yeah. And I say so. Like, I look back and say, Oh man, I wish I used all those hours that I was on the internet looking for, like, ‘What does thyroid cancer mean?’ to just, like, do something else. Go outside and enjoy life with my kids. 

There were many times where like, we'll be like, riding in the car and like my mind is just, like, elsewhere. Like I wasn’t present, and it's because it occupied my mind, the fact that I had cancer, that I didn't know how long it was going to last, that I didn’t know, you know, has it spread, has not spread, is there another treatment, like, what else...there is always this what if. But then, at the same time, it’s like, well, I kind of like wasted all that time because like, now that time is gone, right? Like I look back on my last summer. It's like, Oh my gosh, like, yeah, there were so many days where like, I could have been just enjoying myself. But then instead, I was in this mindset, but it's okay. I don't regret it being in the mindset, that darkness, the darkness.

Jodi-Ann Burey: It's just like, that's what you need at the time. [Angelica: Yeah.] And, you know, it seems like now you're in a different place. I was chatting with someone today about like sleep hygiene and sleep management. Because yeah, I'm like, Oh, shit, I'm like, I'm still suffering with insomnia. But I fill that time with work, because I work because I don't want to be searching cancer symptoms. So I do things that I don't have to feel bad about, like, Oh, I was working, I was up late working. And so like I was up late researching cancer shit. [Angelica: laughs] And so she was like, if you're going to be up, then fill that time with something fun. And it never occurred to me. *laughs* [Angelica: Mhmm.] Like, Oh, I'm—I can't go to sleep, because I'm scared that I’m gonna be thinking about this thing. Instead of firing off emails at three o'clock in the morning, I could work on my adult coloring book. [Angelica: Yeah!] *both laugh* 

Yeah, you know, I can be doing so many other things. And I think, you know, how do we support ourselves? How do we give ourselves what we need, and manage our stress? Like, even from the very beginning, right? When you said, “I choose not to put my energy there,” we still have agency. And so even when things suck I feel like, you know, both of us are still trying to find our way towards making choices about how we want to spend our energy, how we want to spend our time. What do we want to do with that time? And I think as long as you know, we're here, I think that'll just be a part of us, or at least say, I still think it's a part of me as much as like the cancer and that all that trauma is a part of me, so are the lessons and the new agency and choices that I know that I have now. That's also part of me.

Angelica Garcia: Exactly. It has become part of who you are, right? It's not Jodi-Ann and cancer. No, now that's part of who you are. And now, obviously, it's easier to recognize the learnings from it, it’s very difficult to recognize while you're in the middle of it.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Oh, yeah, don't even try. *laughs*

Angelica Garcia: Yeah! But like, now, it's a lot easier to even talk about it, right? Like at the beginning, like, every time I will, I will say I have cancer, like, my voice will break down and I'll start crying. I'll have to, like, take a pause. And then I'll have to say it again. Now I can be like, “Yeah, I had cancer.” And like... It’s not like I’m saying it's not a big deal. But it has become part of who I am, and as you said, is just being able to make the choices. And if it's not easy, but you have to do it. Right, you have to find the choices that are better for you. So how do I choose to spend my time, my energy? Whether it is that I want to get back and you know, read more about, you know, what's next after fighting cancer? Or do I want to go back and listen to a podcast that is gonna make me feel better, right? Because I can tell you that if I choose the first one, I will stay there and I will stay in the darkness and it will be hard to, like, mentally get myself out of bed. But we do, we are here. We have a reason why we're still here. And I do believe that sharing the stories are definitely going to help others, whether that is just one or many, right? If we can help one more person, I feel that that by itself is some of that purpose that we're here for.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah. And that's what we're doing.

Angelica Garcia: : Yeah, that's what we're doing today.

[Theme music begins]

Jodi-Ann Burey, (as host): Black Cancer is created, edited, and produced by me, Jodi-Ann Burey. Thank you so much, Angelica, for sharing your story with us. To make sure that other Black Cancer stories become center to how we talk about cancer, do all the internet things: DM, email, leave a review on Apple Podcast. Check out our website at blackcancer.co and on Instagram @_black_cancer. Trauma comes with endless wisdom for ourselves and those around us. Tell someone you know about Black Cancer.