Full Episode Transcript

Season 2 | Episode 4: Proud/Beautiful (with Michelle Audoin)

Transcribed by: Eryn Strong, Hannah Rosentreter, Gina Marioni, Sonia Montejano, Elizabeth Jarvie, Kisa Nishimoto, Leina Megurikami and Jamie Fischer

Running Time: 1:16:54

Michelle Audoin: You know, going into it, even though this was my project and my vision coming to life, it doesn't mean that uncovering my physical scars and uncovering my body was an easy feat for me. It's not like I was skipping in there like just dropping my shirt and saying, “Take me as I am.” [Jodi-Ann giggles] It really wasn't like that. There was a lot of sleepless nights leading up to it. And [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] and just, again, all of that trauma and emotion of processing like your body. You don't even look at your own bodies. Or how is somebody else going to see you when you can't even stand to look at yourself?

[Theme music begins]

Jodi-Ann Burey, as host: Welcome to Black Cancer, a podcast about the nuances of our lives as people of color told through our cancer journeys. I'm your host, Jodi-Ann Burey. Our guest on today's episode is Michelle Audoin. Her journey with her body and her breasts started when she was just 14 years old. How do those moments of fright and trauma come back to us years later? What do we learn about not only accepting our bodies, but defending our bodies against racism, articulated as disbelief and erasure? Well, it's a journey. And you can learn more about Michelle's journey and how she created the Breast Recognition Project, a beautiful catalogue of the mastectomy scars of women of color in just a few moments. But before we get started, I have to remind you to check out the show notes for links to these amazing photos, and the stories of the women behind them. Here's my conversation with Michelle. 

[Theme music fades out]

Sometimes I think when we look at Black women, and we forget that we were once Black girls *chuckles* [Michelle: Mmhmm.] who didn't know yet that the world expected us to be superhumanly strong, that we were still girls trying to figure out who we were; how we felt about ourselves, learning about our bodies, trying to interpret all these external messages about who we are, and how that was impacted as we started to engage with systems and institutions around us, right. 

And it made me think about, I had this back issue when I was a kid. Until very early on, I was always kind of like in and out of doctors offices a lot. Which for me, in my situation to then in adulthood be in and out of doctors offices, triggers that little girl, and the fear and the anxiety and a lot of the miscommunication and mistreatment sometimes in the healthcare system. [Michelle: Yeah.]  And a lot of times I felt like, people just like, don't understand me. And that has shown up constantly in my life. Anyway, like I've been haunted a bit about your own experience and how much it's connected to mine. And I'm sure how much it connects to other people. And so, you know, can you tell me about your first experience with your own breast health? [Michelle: Yeah.]  And your interactions with the healthcare system, even as a child.

Michelle Audoin: I can definitely identify with growing up as a young Black girl, and that transition into womanhood and then these expectations of society on you to be stronger, or something else than what you really are when you're just a child. And I was one of those girls who was always the tallest in the class. You know, I grew at a very young age, and I grew very, very quickly. You know, in grade five, I was probably taller than most of the grade eight boys. I just grew quickly at a very young age, which sent me into puberty at a very young age. And so you're, you're not really coming into your own body. It's just like it's taking on its own form. It's growing at a rate that you're not ready for yet. And then at 14, as your body is continuing this transition from girlhood to womanhood, and you're taller than everybody else, everybody has these expectations because you're taller, you can maybe tolerate more. Or we-you need to be treated like you're older than what you really, really are. 

But you're still a kid, still naive, still wondering about the world and trying to figure these things out and your role in it. And then you discover a lump in your breast. These breasts that are still developing. How could this possibly be? Breast cancer is an old woman's thing. So I sat with that lump and that fear probably for a few months, because I wasn't sure that I wanted to acknowledge my breasts, I wasn't sure that I wanted other people to be looking at them and to touch them. So I was really afraid of my body, and what was going on with it and all of these changes. And then eventually, I just —-the anxiety and the stress of it got the better of me, and I approached my mom. And I said to her, “Listen, I've got this lump in my breast.” And, you know, she was 100%, supportive, you know. Took me to the family doctor and took me to see some specialists. And, you know, the ball just started rolling from there, you know, from appointments, biopsies and what have you. But, it was a lot for a young girl, you know, even though I was 14, I still consider myself a young girl, because you are a girl. You're not a woman. And so that was a lot of stress, anxiety, pressure to be put on a young kid.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Why do you think this particular instance with the lump is something that has been so imprinted on you? What made this particular discovery of the lump in your breasts so impactful? 

Michelle Audoin: There's a lot of reasons why it imprinted on me. One is because at a very young age, as my breasts were developing, I became hyper-aware of them. And this idea that, you know, there was something wrong with my breasts, from a very young age, as they were developing, I felt like something was wrong. So that was really scary to deal with, at a very young age. Another thing was, you know, going through the healthcare system, and feeling like, people were maybe perceiving me as being older than what I was, or that I could tolerate more, as you said, as a Black woman, sometimes people have expectations that you can tolerate pain and deal with things differently. What really had a negative impact on me was the biopsy process. So going into a doctor's office with two older white men, and having to take your clothes off for them, and bear your breasts, and have them touch them and insert a needle while you're standing there to take a biopsy sample. For me, it was one of the most inhumane experiences that I can recall, you know, going through. And that stuck with me for a very long time as well. 

And then there was the physical scar afterwards. We did proceed to have the lump removed. And so they made an incision around the side of my nipple to sort of like hide the scar. But what it ended up doing was healing in such a way that there was a big lump. A big ridge right around my nipple. And so, my nipples on my breast didn't match. You can see that something was off with one of them. And so, it was just this constant reminder as I was growing up, and looking at my body when other people maybe might have celebrated their womanly bodies, I was always trying to hide mine, because I was aware that there was something different about it.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And there seems like a, like a misunderstanding of how people with darker skin heal and the decisions around where incisions go. I don't know if anyone even talked to you about how this whole process would impact you and your relationship to your body as you're having a developing and growing body. And, I think people sometimes discount some of these things as cosmetic, or these kinds of interactions are temporary, because at least you have the lump removed. Like, at least there's this like larger accomplishment [Michelle: Mmhmm.] without really paying attention to the impact of the process and the scars like—

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, there's scars on both levels. There's the emotional scar, which was something I never felt like I had a voice in expressing. Because my primary concern was that I had a lump. What did we do? We solved the problem, we took the lump out. But that whole process of going into the doctor's offices and having somebody at the age of 14, two older men, in there, you know, doing what they need to do, which is take care of your lump. But, I was not prepared for that going into it, that that was what this experience was going to entail. And I was just sort of had to swallow all of that. And then there's the physical scars as well. So there's a lot to process there. You know, there's the emotional and the physical, and there wasn't support for either of those. You know, for them, they did their job, problem was solved, she can go on. It was a benign cyst is what I was told. So there is no issue. But moving forward from that day on and discovering other lumps. And just always questioning this like, what is this lump this time? Do I want to put myself through that process again and have two older men—disrobe in front of them and have them touch your breasts and poke at them. I didn't want that. I didn't want that, that scared me.

Jodi-Ann Burey: So how do you think that experience at 14 and everything that followed that in those immediate months or years, like how has that impacted you now—now decades later?

Michelle Audoin: You know, I was really just removed from my...I don't want to say sexuality. I never saw myself as a sexual kind of person. I was just really acutely aware of this. And it just impacted, you know, my interactions with people, the clothes that I wore. Because I was just always trying to put up this wall to make sure that attention was never put on my breasts.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Which then, when you become a mom, shifts, right, if you choose to breastfeed. And so with this awareness and this kind of distancing from your body and your breasts, how did that shift when you started breastfeeding your kids?

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, so when I was pregnant, that was one of the things that was really important for me was to see if I was able to breastfeed. And so that experience of motherhood—being able to nourish and feed my kids and develop that bond from breastfeeding—that took that negative experience of my breasts being something painful and ugly and scarred, to something that was mothering and nurturing and natural. And so it gave me a different sense of ownership over my body again, where I felt like I didn't own my breasts anymore, they were just something that I didn't like. And then this made me feel like this is a part of my body, this is a part of my family, I'm giving something to my children. So it completely transformed my experience with my breasts.

Jodi-Ann Burey: I don't have kids now, but I want them, so I keep serving my family and friends like, is this weird? If I'm gonna plan to have a child on my own? 

Michelle Audoin: It’s not. *both laugh* I have friends who have done that, and it's-it is totally cool.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Thank you for that affirmation, Michelle, I appreciate that. And they think about that bonding, and what does it mean to put my body in service of, like you're saying, like, nourishing your child, nourishing your family. And that feels very scary to me now thinking about that possibility, post this new relationship to my body after my cancer surgery. And the fact that like, currently now, like 70% of my body is numb. And so what does that mean when I need to have that close proximity and like sensory impacts with children is something that I feel really nervous about. And also something that nobody thinks is important to talk to me about *chuckles* when I talk to my doctors about, you know, motherhood and what this body means. So I think like, in my situation, I'm trying to think about that post this body change. But when I think about your story, navigating this transformation, with this relationship to body, with this relationship to your breasts, but then finding new lumps. Can you talk to me a bit about, like, how you found the lumps in your breast and what that engagement was like to then make the decision to pursue this as something you want to figure out, like, what the heck is going on?

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, so after, you know, from the age of 14 and beyond, it wasn't like that one breast cyst that was removed was the only one and then all of a sudden, you know, years later I developed breast cancer. That's not how the story was for me. So it was me discovering other lumps and me developing, you know, as an adult, finding my own family practitioner, and developing a relationship with him, and feeling comfortable with him doing breast exams on me and feeling that that was important. And him making referrals to have those lumps checked out and scanned and what have you, to reassure me. So, you know, into my adulthood, there were always other lumps. I shied away from doing those biopsies because that was a very traumatic experience for me, but I sort of took confidence in the fact that I was being monitored. And I think I communicated pretty clearly with my family practitioner that I was concerned about breast cancer. And so when I was nursing my daughter, and then I'd had a lump, and then it seemed like it got bigger, and then he made a referral for me to see a breast specialist, breast cancer specialist. When I went to see him, I think I was in his office literally for two minutes, he basically took his two hands, squeezed both my breasts like he was, you know, touching that, you know, bread in the bag to see how soft and fresh it is. [Jodi-Ann: laughs] And he said to me, “You know what, you've just got lumpy breasts, you've got nothing to worry about,” and the appointment was over. That was the end of it. There was no conversation about what do I do if I discover other lumps? Should I be bringing this up to my doctor every time I have a lump? So I sort of came away from that appointment well, he's the expert, I'm just going to have lumpy breasts, I have to live with it. 

But just because somebody tells you something doesn't mean that you actually believe it. When I was nursing my son, there was a lump that had been there for years, and something in the back of my mind said, “It's different, it feels a little bit different.” At the same time, the voice of this breast cancer specialists telling me, “You've got nothing to worry about, you've got nothing to worry about, you've just got lumpy breasts,” is playing in my mind, you know? And so I'm sort of torn between the two…do I go back to the doctor's office and say, “Listen, I know this one is always there. Can we look at it again?” Versus the expert told me there's nothing to worry about. So I let it go for a few months, and then finally it got the better of me and I just went to my doctor and said, “Listen, can we look at this?” And we got the ball rolling. And so from the ultrasound, we saw that it looked different a little bit, went to the hospital and had a mammogram, biopsy, another biopsy to find out that it was actually the original lump that had been there for years, had changed, and it was now cancerous.

Jodi-Ann Burey: How did that land on you that, like you—yes, these people are breast cancer specialists, that's great. I'm a specialist of my own body and my own experience. And it's almost-I don't want to call it gaslighting, but that's what it feels like when it's like I know my body, I'm telling you that there's something wrong. And then you're telling me with your kind of bread-bag-squeezing examination, that there's nothing wrong. And then fast forward many doctor visits later, it is exactly what you knew and were concerned that it would be. Where was your mind in that, like, how does that make you feel to be at the end of that and you're like, I frickin told you?

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, I was, I was really, really angry that I let myself believe this other person. That I felt like, I was finally at a place where I was in tune with my breasts and I was nurturing and feeding my kids, and then all of a sudden this happens. And it felt like my body was failing me again. And then I felt like the system was failing me because I was not made aware that I was still at risk of getting breast cancer. You know, I was just led to believe that everything that I experienced there on after from that, you know, specialist appointment meant that I was fine. And really I wasn't fine. I was-I was angry, I was frustrated that I felt like the system had failed me and that I was sort of led down a road that wasn't the right one for me to be on.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And you still guided the path, right? Because it wasn't like your first diagnosis was even the correct one. *both laugh* Can you tell me a little bit more about your diagnosis journey and even you shepherding them through that path?

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, so you know what, so going through the diagnosis, so you know, I went through the ultrasounds, was sent to the hospital and they said “Yes, it does look different, do a mammogram.” In the mammogram, they're telling me, “Well, we can't really see much because you've got really dense breasts.” That's the first time I've ever heard this thing about breast density. I don't know what to make of it, but I just file it in the back of my mind as, you know, something that I'm being told. And then when they're giving you options about biopsies, and that, you know, so we can do a fine needle or a more in depth core biopsy, and I'm thinking like, I'm reliving that trauma from being a 14 year old. And my defense mechanism is saying, “You know, do the least invasive,” so I say, “Go and do the fine needle biopsy, that's what I want,” only to find out that that one was-they couldn't get enough sample. 

So I had to go back and do a core biopsy, which is more invasive, they take a bigger sample. And so from that one, you know, I get a pathology report and they say, “Well, you know, good news, it is breast cancer, but it's stage zero. So it is in one of the breast milk ducts, it's encapsulated, it's good, we can just go in there and take it out.” And I can understand from their perspective that that looks like good news. But for me, it was like, this was the thing that I've been waiting for all along. You know, I told you so, I knew this was going to come back to bite you, Michelle. And I knew in that moment that the only option for me was not to go home and celebrate, Yay, this is stage zero.  It was, I need to have a bilateral mastectomy. I don't care what you say, the breasts need to go. And so it was a lot of feeling like people were trying to talk me out of my decision. We can do a lumpectomy, we can salvage your breast, you know, it's only in one breast. And, you know, the more I kept getting that kind of narrative for them, the more I was pushing back and, you know, doing my own research on the side and looking at what are my risk factors, you know, what are the risks of recurrence? What does this look like in women of color and Black people? And, and so I just felt like, no, I needed to stand my ground. 

So one of the, I guess one of the initial steps was to say, “Okay, you know what, we can't schedule the surgical oncologist and the plastic surgeon to do reconstruction on the same day, their schedules don't-they're conflicting right now. So the best thing we can offer you right now is a lumpectomy.” And the good news is, with a lumpectomy, the cancer will be out. And then if you don't want to go through with the mastectomy with the cancer, as I said, “Well, let's do the lumpectomy, get the cancer out, but just know that you need to schedule me for the mastectomy. After that I'm not stopping there,” you know. And so, lo and behold, when we get the pathology report from the lumpectomy, it's actually not stage zero, they found some other things that they did not pick up in the mammogram, this was a much more aggressive breast cancer than they'd originally thought. So I said, “We're still doing this mastectomy thing,” went through with that, you know, they took a couple of lymph nodes out. And then they said, “Well, you know, there's this micro metastatic invasion in one of the two lymph nodes we removed. Good news, you’re stage two, we removed that lymph node. Take some, you know, hormone therapy pills, and, you know, we'll-we'll talk to you in a few months.” And I said, “You know what, no, that just doesn't sit well with me either.” So it was just always just this constant push, and you're just sort of getting tired from having to push all of the time. Like, is this something they’re not understanding? You know, like, [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] is this the standard of care for everybody that you have to push and keep asking? So I did keep pushing and I asked for a referral to a radiation oncologist because radiation wasn't recommended for me. And because the lymph node involvement was so small, they didn't have a big enough sample to test and see if chemotherapy was a valid option for me to do the Oncotype testing. They said it came back inconclusive because there wasn't enough sample. They took that as a good sign, that I didn't have to go on chemo. It was actually when I was getting prepped for the radiation oncologist to look and see where they would need to radiate me for therapy. When he looked at the scans, he said, “Oh my goodness, it's actually something else going on. There's something in your lungs and something in your-your neck that we need to look at.” So we go through biopsies of the neck and the lungs and then we actually find out that I have metastatic breast cancer and thyroid cancer at the same time. Two unrelated, you know, from that stage zero, just a few months ago, to actually realizing that that micro metastatic deposit in my lymph node actually created both lungs filled with multiple tumors, I just was not presenting as a sick person. So nobody thought it was important or necessary to do all that follow up and see if there was more going on with my body. But it was something that I felt like if I-if it got to this point where one of those lumps was cancerous, I knew that this was the road that I needed to take. And it was going to be hard. But it was the right thing to do. And I just needed to make sure that my voice was being heard on this journey.

Jodi-Ann Burey: That’s exhausting. It sounds exhausting. I feel exhausted, even kind of like walking through what that could be like, ‘cause for every comma that you have in your story is equal to like, four doctor's appointments, and like…. *laughs*

Michelle Audoin: Well, yes. And-and when you think of it, so when you-when you look at the diagnosis as a whole, you can appreciate, you know, I'm a mother, so when I lost my breasts, I was still nursing my son. So I'm having to deal with the loss of my breast and the loss of that connection with my son. And then all of the other appointments that were added on top of that, so I was working full time, having to take a leave from work, I've got the surgical oncologist, the plastic surgeon, the medical oncologist, the radiation oncologist, I have ENT to look at the thyroid cancer and endocrinologist to look at the thyroid cancer as well to decide if I need to go on therapy for thyroid replacement. Who else was in there? So I developed a frozen shoulder, which I was told couldn't have been possible because the lump, the cancer was on the left side, but I developed frozen shoulder on the right side. So I had a physiatrist. And then I needed psychosocial support. So I had a psychiatrist, a psychologist, and because I felt like my voice wasn't being heard, a dietitian at the hospital to see what I could do in terms of my diet to help. And so there was like layer upon layer of appointments and having to hear your story. And at one point, I was just in so much pain. And I didn't know who to call. So I'm making all these phone calls to these different specialists, and I'm describing my pain, and then I get a call back saying, “No, no, no, you need to discuss this with this doctor.” I call that Doctor: “No, no, no, this is not my fault. You need to call this doctor,” and I just spent the whole day on the phone, calling doctors to tell them I was in pain. And nobody stepped up to help me deal with my pain, it was a low point, it was really a low point.

Jodi-Ann Burey: It's like, I think people who aren't in this don't understand that you don't just have a doctor, you end up having a care team. But even the idea of a care team is a little misleading because not everyone on this team knows that they have teammates. *chuckle* [Michelle: Mmhmm, mmhmm.] So you are the center of the team, which then makes you like, you know, switching metaphors here, but, like, you become the project manager of your own care, [Michelle: Yup.] and you are the sick person. And so you have to have enough wherewithal to manage this, manage yourself, and then manage your family, your work and other responsibilities, repeating your story over and over. I don't know about you, but for me, I would always-I'd have my kind of canned elevator pitch of what my issue is, so then we could just move on and talk about the thing that needs to talk about. And then on top of all of this, people look at you, and people said this to me almost verbatim, “You don't present as a sick person.”

Michelle Audoin: You don't look sick.

Jodi-Ann Burey: You don't look sick, yes! 

Michelle Audoin: You don’t look sick.

Jodi-Ann Burey: You look great!

Michelle Audoin: You look goooood! Your hair looks goooood! Your skin's glowing!

Jodi-Ann Burey: Exactly. I'm like, “Well, I feel like shit. I'm not doing well.” To me, it aligns with this sense as Black women: you're so strong, you're so resilient, you're doing all this Black girl magic stuff, and you can be deteriorating, right? [Michelle: Yes.] And people don't see that. And so I think about this whole like, you don't look sick as you are so strong, which means it's easier to ignore the fact that there's so much going on - a lot of stress and a lot of hurt and actual sickness, even if you don't see it as sick.

Michelle Audoin: It’s easy to dismiss. [Jodi-Ann: Yes, yes.] It's easy to dismiss that person because they don't look sick. It's easy to dismiss their concerns. Because if you really are sick, maybe you would be crying more in my office, maybe you would be, you know, looking a different way, you know? And so that was one of those things where I felt like that stereotype of you’re strong was coming to bite me in the butt, you know, like, I don't feel strong, but it doesn't mean that I'm going to fall apart in front of you. But you still need to hear what I'm saying.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, that's the tough part of like, I have to show up for this, so I'm going to do that. But then that works against me, because then you think I'm more fine than I am. [Michelle: Yep.] Just because I'm handling my business, right?

Michelle Audoin: I've got a 10 minute appointment with you, I'm not going to spend eight of them crying into [Jodi-Ann: Exactly.  *laughs* ]...you know?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Exactly, then you spend the last two minutes, like, trying to rush your situation. [Michelle: Yeah.] So I think this aligns with what you are saying around like, there's this diagnosis of metastatic breast cancer, and then there's being Black having cancer. You know, I don't know if you have anything that you want to share more about, you know, how your Blackness comes into play as you're navigating your healthcare?

Michelle Audoin: Well, I think the care that I got was-is good. I'm getting good care, I'll be clear about that. But I feel like some of the experiences are definitely related to being Black. Sort of feeling like you're not being heard. At one point, my mother who is white, you know, I felt like I was asking questions and feeling like I was not getting the depth of answers that I wanted. Or sometimes I was-my questions are being dismissed, or we'll talk about that at a later time when you're ready for it. Why do you think I'm not ready for this information right now? Like, if I'm asking you the question, it's because I want the answer to and I felt like a lot of those experiences being swept under the rug or being dismissed, or asking me frequently, like, “Do you understand what we're saying?” Like somehow I'm less intelligent. And so I felt like in those experiences, I felt myself shrinking. That was really hard to be there in those moments and feel like, the reason why they were taking, addressing some of my concerns is because I brought my mom in, who's also a retired nurse. So she understood how to navigate the medical system as well. And so I felt like, you know, as a woman in her 40s, I should not have to bring my mom to my doctor's appointment [Jodi-Ann: laughs] to have my concerns addressed. I was like this, this is crazy. But this was the situation that we found ourselves in. That was really, really weird.

Jodi-Ann Burey: That's a strategy that I've heard a lot of Black women, a lot of women of color in general use, is to bring up a white person to your appointment, who loves you. *both laugh* Like I've heard stories, people like, Oh, they weren't listening. So I brought my, you know, my white spouse or like someone who loves me who's white, like, Can you just come with me to this appointment so they can listen to me? *laughs*

Michelle Audoin: Crazy. That's crazy.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Another strategy’s like, Can you bring someone who knows how to speak medical? *chuckles* right? Like who has a really high level of medical literacy. And I've, I've done that. The first person I call is my friend who's a nursing director, right? Or I call a friend who was a radiologist. And so I try to learn the terminology and, and how to have a conversation with doctors at that level. So maybe they can maybe not see my Blackness as much and try to respect me a little bit more to try to like, elevate my standing and game the system of their biases. [Michelle: Yeah.]  to my advantage.

Like quick story. There's this comedian that I really like Sarah Jones or something, I think, but she does a lot of impersonations of people of different races and ethnicities and life experiences. And so she was telling the story about how she's like walking down the streets in LA with her friend and they jaywalked and they got stopped by police officers, her and another woman of color. And she was being mistreated by them in a way, and she said, she's trying to figure out quickly, like, How can I elevate my status? And she went straight into her British accent character that she has. [Michelle: Yes.] And she's like that kind of let her off because they have this bias that British people are like cool, smart people and you don't mess with them. Right? *laughs*

Michelle Audoin: That's right.

Jodi-Ann Burey: That's why I feel like I get to do that like, [Michelle Audoin: Yeah, yeah.] when you bring a white person like you're trying to... [Michelle: Completely, completely!] that's a way to try to kind of, bring your army and stuff but I, I feel like this. I'm curious what your experience is like; I feel like I have to carry the weight of racial inequities and all these negative experiences that I had. And there's this whole armor, that I have to just go to a doctor's appointment when you're supposed to be the most vulnerable.

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, it's always...it's really, really funny because, you know, you'll...so many people always say, You know what breast cancer doesn't discriminate, you know? And, and I think it's, it's very naive to say that it's just like, white friends saying to me, but I don't see you as a Black person, I don't see people of color as being different than like, because you've never walked in our shoes. And that's pretty nice of you to say, like, glad you love me as a friend but saying that is...you're really missing the mark, really missing the mark. And so when people say that breast cancer doesn't discriminate, talk to somebody who's, you know, Black, or indigenous person of color going through the cancer experience, and then you hear what their experiences are. And then you tell me to my face.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, people who say that have no idea about like, social determinants to health. And I'm, like, how different one person's journey can be just because they occupy a different body, and like the meaning that we ascribe to what different bodies look like, and how we should respect them and respect those people. And so as I think about like, discrimination in the process, and in the journey, I would love for you to share more about the reconstruction part of your journey.

Michelle Audoin: Yes, navigating the breast reconstruction part was really, really stressful for me. Because I think it's pretty well known that you know, when you...when you're going through any kind of medical procedure, that healthcare team that you're you're assigned to, they usually try to upload you with information about, you know, what to expect, how to care for your body, your scars, whatever pain management, all of those things, get ahead of time, so that you have time to process it and, and you know, gives patients better outcomes, sense of control and better outcomes. And so I was looking for that for myself. And so part of that was dealing with the scars. So from my surgery when I was 14, it left a definite scar around my breast, around my nipple, and that I was always acutely aware of and, you know, as a little girl growing up, and you get cuts and boo boos, I was aware that Black skin often heals differently. You can get keloids, or hyperpigmentation and the scars that take a very long time to fade. And so that scared me as well. And so I was meeting my plastic surgery team, that was something that was really important for me to find out. What does this surgical procedure look like on a woman of color? And can I get those images and figure out how to best care for my skin? And so as I was going into these appointments, I kept getting images of women who had breast reconstruction, but they were all white. And, you know, so then I started hanging back after these appointments and thinking like, you know, I got all the information but there's this one component that's missing for me, and I need to see what this reconstruction surgery looks like, on somebody who's got a darker skin color. I need to see it on Black women of color who looked like me. And it just kept being dismissed. One, “You know what, it always looks better on Black people, Black people always look great when they have surgery on these”, you know, and you know, and then you sort of come away from that appointment saying, “Well, if it looks so great, then why isn't it in your portfolio? Where are those images? You know, where's the pudding?” [Jodi-Ann: Yeah *chuckles* ] You know? I'm like, I shouldn't just have to take your word on it like you really believe it's true. Why aren't they there?

Jodi-Ann Burey: It always looks better? So why am I not on the front page? Like I don't get it. [Michelle: Yes!] Don’t you want to put your best stuff forward?

Michelle Audoin: Exactly! [Jodi-Ann: laughs] Put your best stuff out there, you know? And then or they said, “Well, you know what, we don't have any on file, but we can get those to you really quickly.” And then those really quickly was like a callback later thing. I've been spending an hour you know, with my contacts here and other cancer care centers and in the state, and we don't have those images. And that's where I really felt my heart sinking. So it's really hard to go into this surgery, to lose your breast to be told that you're going to lose your nipples and you don't know what your scars and your body is going to look like afterwards. It's really hard to process and to accept that you're doing this to yourself. And so I went into this, not knowing what I was going to look like and not knowing if what I look like afterwards was normal, and not being given clear guidance about how to manage my scars. And to alleviate some of that stress and anxiety, like I'm doing everything that I can to make my scars look better. But I wasn't given that. I felt like that was really missing.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And like, it's the reconstruction and other elements of this is as well, like you were sharing the story about the makeup and the wigs, and just like, there are different elements of reconstruction in your breasts, but also the post-cancer reintroduction to your body and how you want to present yourself to the world that doesn't center us.

Michelle Audoin: Absolutely. Like that's, you know, from some of my other Black female friends who are going through breast cancer experiences, and in one of our cancer care centers, they they have a service that is dedicated to...you know, making women feel better, and look good, you know, in spite of their you know, cancer losing their hair, their eyebrows, what have you. And so you can go in there, you can book an appointment with you know, a consultant who can help you with makeup and hair and wigs and what have you. And so, you know, two women go into this center. One is a Black one and one's a white one. Why don't you guess which one comes away with a bag full of goodies and the other one comes away with nothing and feeling more defeated than when she went in?

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, coming away with nothing or coming away with the promise of I'll get back to you, or the directive to look things up on the internet, like, but I'm not walking away with my goodie bag. [Michelle: Yeah.] Cause you weren't thinking about me. Ugh! How did you navigate this reconstruction period? Like where were you putting all that energy and frustration and kind of working through your emotional and mental state? Like, what did you do with all of that?

Michelle Audoin: You know what, I'll be honest, and it wasn't a pretty process...That feeling like my voice wasn't heard...That, you know, the the loss of that relationship with my son and that bond when I was losing my breasts, that that story wasn't being heard or valued, that I was somehow supposed to be grateful that I was getting these, you know, new, perkier looking breasts than my natural sagging, mommy boobs. None of that sat well with me and so I sort of retreated from the world because I was not happy with this part of my cancer care experience. I was not happy with what was going on and not feeling like I was a part of that process. And so I did slip into a depression.I stopped seeing my body as a whole. Whereas motherhood, reconnected me with my body, breast cancer severed that relationship, once again. And so I stopped seeing my body as a whole. And I was sort of looking at myself from the chest up, but not looking at my reconstructed breast, and then looking, you know, sort of below my chest, and I would see my bodies in two parts, and never that part in the middle, that was my breast. I'd just avoid that at all costs. So part of that was just writing down my feelings, sometimes I just write down like, I really wish somebody would have images of women who looked like me, going through, like, I wonder why I had to go through this alone and feel like there wasn't anything out there for me. 

And I just started writing notes, journaling to myself, you know, this wish list of things that I wanted, or how I wish things could have been differently, or what would I want somebody else going through this experience to know. And then I just gave it a name. I just called it my Breast Recognition Project. And it sort of made me feel better about myself because I was just processing my emotions and writing them down. And it was just to help me feel better.

Jodi-Ann Burey: I think writing or whatever outlet to just like put something somewhere is so critical. In some instances it kind of makes these ideas real and I love the fact that you named it and like maybe that also made it feel real, like it was a thing, it started to become this vision. I had that similarly too. After my surgery, I was in a very, very dark place, and I don't if you’ve gone back to some of the things that you've written during this time, but I've gone back to some of the things that I've written during this time, and it's very dark. And I feel really sad for that person. And even like distancing myself from parts of myself. And then you know, you keep writing, you keep writing. And I had this idea for this podcast, because I found myself during this time, like only really wanting to talk to other people who experienced cancer in some way, or had some type of medical trauma was the only way that I could find peace in a social space, because [Michelle: Mhm.] I felt like they understood me a little bit like I didn't have to explain a lot of things. And they can get the darkness and kind of let that be for a little bit. 

And so I was like, okay, Black Cancer podcast, cool, cool, cool, you know, ready to do it. And then George Floyd was murdered. And everything that I'd written about doing this project, I just, I couldn't do it anymore. I spent most of the time after his murder and the uprisings kind of half, like I would split my computer screen, like half of it was watching, you know, the protests that were happening, and the news and live feeds all over the country all over the world, and then the other part of my screen, I just kept watching Hoarders. *laughs* I don't know why. Like, I just wanted to watch Hoarders. I watched episode, episode, episode, over and over and over again, like I just wanted, I just wanted to see other people's problems, ya know? [Michelle: Right.] So-and that was happening for a very long time. And I was like, I can't do this podcast. Like, I just couldn't create then. And I talked about this before, there was a particular protest in Seattle called White Coats for Black Lives, and they were trying to activate the medical and public health community around Black Lives Matter. And I was so angry about it. So I want to hear your story. What was it like for you to see health organizations make statements about supporting Black lives? When I'm like, I've been in your offices, and I didn't feel this support for Black life, like… *laughs*

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, you know, it was everybody's, sort of like, coming out of their vacation mode and realizing, “Holy crap, you know, Black people are angry, and we better do something about it. Because the whole world is watching,” and no. George Floyd's murder sickened me, it saddened me as it would anybody rightly so. But on a different level, when you're—when you're a Black person, it re-traumatizes you. It was really hard to move forward. Because it was bringing up all of those experiences, from your childhood, from watching your family members, your siblings go through things, what you go through in your career and feeling like all those barriers that have been there. And it took, you know, somebody filming a Black man's life being snuffed out of him, for people to wake up and take notice. It's really hard when you're dealing with trauma, to pick up the torch and want to join that battle as well. So I had to take a moment to process that trauma, but also not be afraid to name it. When other people were trying to sort of like sugarcoat it, so to speak, and put out statements and say, “Well, you know what, we believe in diversity and equity. And this is one of our core mission statements. We know we're not perfect, but we're going to do better. And thank you very much.” That wasn't cutting it for me. It really wasn't cutting for me. So I found myself when I was seeing those kinds of statements, revolting against them and sending letters and messages to whoever sent that out and say, listen, it's not enough. It really isn't enough. You just cannot put out a statement without really listening to the stories of the people who are behind this movement. You know, those people that have been left behind as an afterthought for years and years. So, it came from a place of vulnerability, my Breast Recognition Project, but it was also authentic. Because it wasn't me sort of riding on the coattails of George Floyd, it was really me just being—I need people to really hear what it's like being a Black woman going through this breast cancer experience and not for somebody to say that we value all-all people in breast cancer doesn’t discriminate. No, you really need to hear how much breast cancer does discriminate, and how my opportunities are so vastly different from somebody else from a Eurocentric background.

Jodi-Ann Burey: How did the Breast Recognition Project come to life?

Michelle Audoin: So there is a breast cancer group that's based here in Toronto, and it's called Rethink Breast Cancer, and Rethink Breast Cancer, you know, in light of what was going on with George Floyd, had put out some statements as well which just didn't jive with me. And so I had reached out to their executive director and said, “You know, what? This isn't okay. Okay, the statement that you're putting out, and these are my reasons why.” And I wasn't expecting much from it, because other letters that I'd send to other organizations sort of fell on deaf ears, or you would just get more platitudes, and, you know, brushed under the rug kind of thing. But she actually followed up with a phone call, she was just like, “I hear what you're saying, and want to hear more about what you're saying.” So I started just airing all of my grievances. And then I said, “You know what, while we're here, just let me tell you everything that's bothering me.” And this whole breast reconstruction thing has been bothering me. It's been three years since I was diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer, three years since I lost my breast. And I still don't know what to do with my body, I still don't accept my body. And I still don't have options. And this is eating me alive. And I told her about my journaling and my notes. And I said, “You know, I, in the back of my mind, I call it the Breast Recognition Project, because I feel like, this is what needs to happen. We need to recognize, you know, the Black and people of color’s breasts and their stories,” and she was like, “We can help you with that.” And it was like whiplash, and I was like, my neck just snapped pretty much. I was just like, “Seriously, how can you help me with this?” Like, “Yeah, we would love to help you get this out there. We can—” you know from their networks, from social media, like “We can get you a photographer, we can get you here, or we can, you know, see about getting published?” And I was just like, yes, yes. And yes. And by the way, when we're talking hair and makeup, we're talking Black makeup artists and Black hair stylists, for those of us who still have hair and you know, to take care of wigs and what have you. I said it needs to be an all Black production.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Let them know, Black in front and Black in back. People don't realize that ... I don't just want to see Black and Brown people. I want Black and Brown people to create this thing that I'm seeing too. And I love your insistence on like, this needs to be an all Black project. [Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.” I know what it is. Because I've been—I've been looking at them pictures girl. *Michelle laughs* Butmwhat is the thing that you made?

Michelle Audoin: So, The Breast Recognition Project for me first and foremost, it was a cathartic project. I needed to take those notes in my journaling and give them life. And so was feeding a cathartic purpose for me, I needed to have that moment where my voice was really heard. And how was it heard was by writing about my experiences of what it was like going through breast cancer as a woman of color. And I wanted to see what other women of color’s breasts look like, after reconstruction. What did it look like? So, Rethink Breast Cancer, put a call out there through their social networks, and seven other women came on board and so we you know, had two days of photoshoots. And so we came together and so part of it was celebrating the beauty of Black women in spite of cancer. So just really feeling beautiful and good in your own skin. And that was something that was really, really hard like—because you-you feel like cancer’s taken everything away from you, like you're—there's no sensation in your breasts anymore, got the scars, some of the women had lost their hair and their eyebrows. 

But to be made to feel beautiful in that moment, and feel strong and confident in who you are in that moment, and to feel like people care about my story, you know, it was all encompassing, you know? And so that was really amazing to have that experience. I probably didn't even answer what your question was. *laughs* 

Jodi-Ann Burey: No, no, that’s exactly it. Like, you put this whole production together, you had two-day photo shoot. These absolutely incredible images of these beautiful Black and brown women, and what their bodies look like in this way. Like, I have showed people who are, like, afraid to get genetic testing for breast cancer or afraid to even do self exams, because they're scared of what could happen. And so I shared it with them in a way to say, “This is normalized. I just had a conversation with Michelle. She put this together, these are what, you know, these women look like and they look beautiful. Like, we're celebrating bodies that have been resilient. We're celebrating what our bodies look like after this whole process and during this whole process.” How can we normalize it? I think it's so powerful in the project and in the work. But at the same time, this is like a very personal experience to you. And so what did it feel like to see yourself from the photographer's perspective, like in this, like glossy print, what was that like?

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, that was, that was really, really interesting, because, you know, going into it, even though this was my project and my vision coming to life, it doesn't mean that uncovering my physical scars, and uncovering my body was an easy feat for me. It's not like I was skipping in there, like just dropping my shirt and saying, “take me as I am”. [Jodi-Ann: laughs] It really wasn't like that, there was a lot of sleepless nights leading up to it. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] And just, again, all of that trauma and emotion of processing, like, your body. You don't even look at your own body, so how is somebody else going to see you when you can't even stand to look at yourself. So all those doubts were in the back of my mind. And, you know, the photographer, she did a really phenomenal job of just like, “You know what, there is no pressure. Sit how you want, take some pictures, I might give you some guidance.” And then very quickly, she started just showing me what she had on her camera. And she's like, “Wait a minute. That's a beautiful picture.” Wait a minute, you saw something beautiful in me where all I saw was, you know, grotesque scars and pain and trauma. But you found beauty in that? How is that even possible? And I felt like in that moment, I was just uplifted in a way that I had never experienced. And I wasn't expecting to experience.

Jodi-Ann Burey: That's amazing. It's like, *sings* Who's that girl? Nah, nah, nah

Michelle Audoin: *laughs* Yeah. It was interesting, because every woman as she was walking in, like, we did not know each other. We were not friends. We belong to the same, you know, breast cancer group, see each other's blog posts or what have you from time to time, but to see them all walk in and sort of feel like, I recognize that expression on your face, you're like, wondering, what the hell did I just walk into? What did I just sign up for? I don't know if I can do this, I think I'm going to be sick. And then to see them walk off the set looking uplifted, joyous, relieved, proud, beautiful, strong. It was the same experience. You know, I was there for both days of the shoot, because I wanted to see all these women and see, you know, thank them for raising their hands to be a part of the project and giving a voice where there was none before.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And it's this one sense of like, you see the transformation happening within yourself, and then you see the transformation happening within these other women. I don't know how you took it, but if it was me, if I was responsible for making this happen, I think I'd be bursting from the inside out. Just thinking about the impact that this can have on so many people to be able to feel even a fraction of what you were feeling in that moment is, I mean, I would explode. I would absolutely explode.

Michelle Audoin: Wow, that's really sweet. Like, you know what it is, it's when, you know, talking with the other women and just seeing how they had been like me, they just sort of bottled up these experiences and their voice, because they didn't feel like there was an outlet for it in the cancer care community. But all of-you can see that all of our experiences are very similar. There's that… so there's giving, you know, Black and people of color a voice, and putting those images out there and having their stories told and heard. And then there's the other side, where there are the healthcare providers, the cancer care providers. For them really to be aware that you know what, we do good day in and day out. We help people with their cancer diagnosis, we provide them care, what have you, but we're still missing something. And we had no idea that this is what people were going through. And I think so it's both. It enlightens, you know, one set of the population, where it's uplifting another, that's really special to feel like this project has done that. It's filled the void, and given a voice where there's been nothing but silence. But then it gives other people food for thought to think about, you know, how can we improve our care and our patient experience? You know, if we're really, like, a patient centered organization, then really hearing the experiences of various communities is really important.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Absolutely, absolutely. And there's this, like, meta impact that you can have with this as it goes out to the world. And I hope, rapidly, that people know that this exists and is accessible to them and inspiring them to make some structural changes in the options that they have available for women of color who are navigating reconstruction. Then, yes, your personal experience, but another element of this personal journey is reaching back to not just your own little girl and your relationship to your own body, but what you are modeling for your little girl, your daughter, and how she is watching you in this process. How have you brought your daughter along? 

Michelle Audoin: Yeah. That's been a tricky one. You know, even though the breast, you know, nurturing and breastfeeding bond with my son was severed when I lost my breasts, little kids as they go through life, you know, they're always in the bathroom with you, you know. And so he got used to seeing my new breasts. He didn't always understand. So it's sort of like they jump from puddle to puddle. So they’re in it, they asked a whole lot of questions. They forget about it, and then they're in it again. And so it's like you're constantly retelling the story to them. [Jodi-Ann: Yeah. *laughs*] And so that's how it's been for the past three years with him where he forgets and then, you know, he asks a question, you know, “Why don’t your nipples look like mine?” And then we go through it again. And then, “Why do your breasts feel so squishy?” And I explain to him that they're not real, they're implants, and that there's cancer. So you know, I'm constantly having this conversation with him. 

On the other hand, for my daughter, getting close to this age, where I was aware of my breasts and feeling these lumps, and not being happy with my body, and so it's sort of put up this wall, and this fear of going back to that child, that young girl that I was, growing into her body, and then being aware that, you know, I have body image issues, and I've had them for a very long time because of this experience, and not wanting to download that onto her. So I sort of kept a lot of my experience quiet from her without sharing with, you know, she knew that I had a mastectomy, she knew that there was reconstruction, she knew that I hadn't nipples. But because I couldn't accept my body, I just shielded her from that. And I did not want her to see that and go through life fearing her breasts and doubting her body. Not that I was pretending to be something that I wasn't. It was just, I just wouldn't go there. So I wasn't pretending, but I wasn't opening up either. But when I got my hard copy of the Breast Recognition Project, she was one of the first people that I gave it to and I said, “I know I've been talking to you about this, my vision and, you know, here it is, in color, for you. This is my story. These are the women's story.” And her eyes lit up. She was just like, “Wow, mom, this is amazing. What you're doing is amazing, really beautiful. I love what you're doing. I love reading the women's stories. It's wrong that your experience has been different from other people, and I'm so proud of you for speaking up and putting this together. This will be really helpful for other people.” So just that recognition, I felt like it was the right time to open up to her.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Um, yeah, I don't even know what to say to that. [Michelle: laughs] I mean, is there any greater impact than to go through some of the worst traumas of your life and to have your child look at you and say that they're proud of you?

Michelle Audoin: Mm hmm. Yeah, I never I never even thought of it like that. But yeah, it is. Yeah. It was, a lot of it was, like, a lot of self-preservation, you know, not to get her involved with it. But I think when I look at how the timing landed with the project, that it couldn't have been any better.

Jodi-Ann Burey: I'm just-I'm in awe of you. And what you've been, first and foremost, been able to create for yourself. The space that you demanded for yourself, is what created space for other people, and what expanded your daughter's idea of good bodies; or what does it mean to go through trauma, understanding that there are different ways of being and that to be such an important message in your formative years. So, I mean, I think there's this temptation that even I'm feeling right now, as we wind down to say, “Look at Michelle. Look at everything that she's had to endure, and the biopsies and all the traumas and you know, the diagnoses and the mistreatment in the healthcare system,” and then she made this thing happen. [Michelle: Yeah. *chuckles* Woo hoo.] Let’s just wrap this with a nice, big, pink bow with a pink ribbon on it, and look at this incredible thing that she did, and everything's great. But it is a seductive narrative. [Michelle: It is.] That is like, not the way life works. *chuckles* [Michelle: It is.] Like, what now?

Michelle Audoin: Yeah, I'm glad that the project is out there. I'm glad that women can access it online, for free. I'm glad that it's being shipped to cancer care centers across the country. I'm glad that it is making people stop and think. I've gotten messages, emails...from doctors to complete strangers--some of them people of color, some of them not--but just all acknowledging, you know, this disparity in our healthcare system and acknowledging that, you know, the experience of Black women and women of color in the cancer care community matter. And then saying, you know, like, “I will do more to try and make sure like - when I go into my appointments as a white person, if I'm seeing only white images, maybe I can speak up and say something.” And I'm like, thank you. Thank you for that. And I think that is lovely that I'm hearing those things. But where I feel like there's a whole lot of silence is from those big cancer care agencies and those big communities, and nobody's hitting up my phone and saying, “You know what? Remember that thing, you know, we're going to do better? It starts with this.” And nobody is making that bold statement or step to make something like having a database of Black women. Like, you've got tons of images of white women that you can offer up at your information sessions and in your clinical practice - why aren't you taking pictures of the Black women? Why is it assumed that everybody wants to see just what plastic surgery looks like and breast reconstruction looks like on a white woman? Why is it assumed that that's the “go-to”? That that's the norm? Why is there a discrepancy there? And so I come away from this and I'm like - this project shed a light on this inequity. This experience...it filled a need for this kind of project; it filled the need for women to have their voices heard. It's great, it's filled a void, and they can easily say when somebody--a woman of color, a Black woman--comes into their office and say, “You know what, here's a website you can go to, here's a resource that you can have-“ that doesn't involve a lot of effort on their part.

What scares me and saddens me to think is that if someone that I love who is Black, or of color, you know—my sister, my nieces, you know, close friends—if they were to be diagnosed tomorrow and went into the hospital and were given breast reconstruction options, their options wouldn't look any different than what mine have been for the past three years. [Jodi-Ann: Mmm.] It’d be the same. It’s just that maybe they would be given my resource...which is great, but their options are not any better than what mine were. And three years, plus launching Uncovered:A Breast Recognition Project, I still don't have those images of what I want to see in breast reconstruction, so that I know what I want to do with my body. I still can't move forward because I don't have those images. And it scares me to go under the knife again, and say, “I want to do this“ because I don't know what it's gonna look like in the end. And I just want to have those images so that I can process and make an informed decision. I don’t have that opportunity, still. It’s like a double edged sword. It's great that it's out there, it's filling a void. And it's shining a light on this issue. But at the same time, we're still stuck in that same place where I have been for the past three years.

Jodi-Ann Burey: And that's the difference between representation and actually systemically changing your options. It's not enough to just see it. Like, “Yes, I want this resource that I created, I created something that I needed, yes. But it's not enough. That was just a first step. And so, “This is what I did. What are you gonna do?” Right? “What are your actions? How are you creating space and options for me that I can actually—not me only just changing my own decisions—but the people that I love, and people who are coming behind me who might find themselves in this situation, too.” 

As I'm listening to all of this, the narrative is: as Black women, as women of color, we're always in this state of constantly needing to fight for our voice; constantly needing to advocate for ourselves and in the process of creating the things that we need—we not only help other people like us--but we augment and improve systems. But it's not enough. I can do this thing for myself and other people, but it's not going to be enough. And that is what I feel like we're in this constant state of fighting for people to listen to us. And that shows up in these like larger system issues. And that shows up when I have to go to the doctor's office every day and these micro-moments of our lives. And that's what it is.

Michelle Audoin: It's absolutely true. Yes, it's easy to wrap it up in a bow and be like, “Oh my gosh, you know, Michelle looks so beautiful. All these women look so beautiful.” You know, women with breast cancer and breast reconstruction look beautiful. So what's the deal? [Jodi-Ann: Yeah.] But the bigger issue is that this is still systemic, there's still systemic underrepresentation of Black women and women of color in the breast cancer narrative. So yes, there's some beautiful pictures, and I feel happy about the resource that's out there. But the bigger systemic issue - I can't tackle that alone. I need those people with the power who have the seat at those tables and at those, you know, executive levels to say, “We can do more, and we're willing to do more.” Like they need to take that bold initiative.

Jodi-Ann Burey: Yeah, and we’ll definitely link to the project in the show notes, but I just want your voice on this podcast right now telling other women who need it for themselves and other people who listen to this who have decision making authority to actually change systems —where can they find out more about the Breast Recognition Project? 

Michelle Audoin: Right. So the Breast Recognition Project, you can go to rethinkbreastcancer.com and on their website you will find Uncovered, it’s called Uncovered:A Breast Recognition Project. And there you will find all of the photos, and you can read the stories about the women who participated in this project. You can see what kind of breast cancer they were diagnosed with, what stage of breast cancer they were at. And you can again--you can see their images and stories and it's at rethinkbreastcancer.com, Uncovered: A Breast Recognition Project. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: Awesome. Thank you so much, Michelle. Thank you for answering my Instagram DMs. *both laugh* 

Michelle Audoin: And you can be a mommy on your own,100%. I'm just gonna put that out there again. You can do it. I've got girlfriends who've done it. 

Jodi-Ann Burey: *exhales* I appreciate that. Because listen, I tell my sister this--I'm like, “Hey, I want to move back to New York because I want to have a baby on my own. But I can't be in Seattle because I don't have family out there. And I need a whole network.” And like, here's me this “strong Black woman” asking for help. And I was like, “Hey, can I live near you? So you can help me?” And she's like, “Absolutely not.” She's like, “As soon as my last kid goes to college, you want to come and bring a baby up in my house? No, it’s gonna be me and my husband and you're gonna mess up my plans??” I'm like, “Are you serious?” So I've got to figure out like, I definitely want to have this baby, but I gotta figure out where I'm gonna live. *laughs*

Michelle Audoin: It can be done. It. Can. Be. done.  

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Jodi-Ann Burey, as host: Black Cancer is created, edited and produced by me, Jodi-Ann. Thank you so much, Michelle, for sharing your story with us. 

To make sure that other Black cancer stories become center to how we talk about cancer, rate, subscribe, like - all the things. Check us out online at blackcancer.co and on Instagram @_black_cancer. 

Let Michelle’s Breast Recognition Project let you know that trauma comes with endless wisdom for ourselves and those around us. Tell someone you know about Black Cancer

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